Soviet Order of October Revolution - research

[Bryan]

Did somebody already researched an Order of October Revolution? I was wondering if we can find something interesting while researching them.

[NavyFCO]

I have seen several October Revolutions included in military award cards, but I've never seen a citation for one. You might have some luck in finding a newspaper article though about the recipient if you have the Ukaz date for the award.

Dave

[order_of_victory]

Would it be worth resershing a Order of Otober Revolution

[NavyFCO]

Would it be worth resershing a Order of Otober Revolution

Why not? It's one of those awards where it could be given to someone who either 1) did something pretty cool or was 2) pretty well connected and thus interesting from a human perspective. I've come across some pretty cool citations and awardings for even Badges of Honor and Orders of the Red Banner of Labor.

Dave

[order_of_victory]

Dave

Is G.K. the best person to email regrding Soviet Medal reserch (I saw he recomended else were on the forum)

Edited March 2, 2006 by Rick Research

[NavyFCO]

Dave

Is (*******@*****.com) the best person to email regrding Soviet Medal reserch (I saw he recomended else were on the forum)

Not just the best, but the only one. Anyone else that "offers" research is simply going through him and charging an extra fee for it.

ALSO, FOR ALL: since research (like taking out medals) is technically not legal, please don't post his name in public forums. I think I speak for us all when I say that I'd sure hate to lose the person that can do research because customs got wind of it...

Dave

Edited March 2, 2006 by Rick Research

[Riley1965]

I will, of course, honor this as he has been very helpful. I want to know what makes research documents illegal. After all they are historical records for research.

Doc

Not just the best, but the only one. Anyone else that "offers" research is simply going through him and charging an extra fee for it.

ALSO, FOR ALL: since research (like taking out medals) is technically not legal, please don't post his name in public forums. I think I speak for us all when I say that I'd sure hate to lose the person that can do research because customs got wind of it...

Dave

[Ed_Haynes]

Should we be having this discussion? This forum is NOT closed??

[Guest Rick Research]

I've gone through above and edited out the names, lest the googlespiders of the Current Manifestation Of The "Organs" turn up said researcher's name and address.

I had long worried that this might be, literally, dangerous, and do not want the only remaining line we all have to the Archives shut down forever-- with very personal consequences at that end.

So anybody wanting to know how to research in future can ask NavyFCO here and be passed on in PM private, OK?

"Public records" are, of course, not really "public" at all in many countries.

I should be astonished to get American records as recent as some we have seen here out of military bureaucracies. The Germans are still idiotically (if I may be tactful) "classified"-ing 1914-18 naval personnel records, and on and on and on.

So:

tact and discretion, comrades!

[NavyFCO]

I will, of course, honor this as he has been very helpful. I want to know what makes research documents illegal. After all they are historical records for research.

Doc

Doc:

You're thinking like an American... We take for granted the things that we can get via the Freedom of Information Act (and the requests that can be thrown back at you citing the Privacy Act!) though this is something relatively unique to we western countries. The Brits won't let you touch WW2 records, nor will the South Africans; the Germans will charge you a fee for them... you can go down the list.

The Russians will actually sell copies of the records requested, but it has to either be to a veteran, next of kin, or member of the Russian government on official business. I think I might be the only American who has been inside the Archives at Padolsk - and not even very far at that. Depending on who you work with, the archivists can be pretty decent folks (I'd say better than our people at the NPRC!) but they are restricted in who they can give the research out to. In fact, there's a big sign right inside the waiting area by the main gate that says who they can release research to and at what price. You probably wouldn't be surprised to note that "foreign collectors" aren't included on the list of authorized researchers!

Although it's legal to pull the Ukazes regarding civilian awards, and then photocopy the relevant newspapers that go along with the Ukaz, it's not so simple when dealing with the Archives. In fact, for a foreigner to request the research, it's a long, convoluted process (surprised?) where you have to make the request directly through the Ministry of Defense, they have to approve the request, then approve what they give you (forget about getting "secret" market citations!) and then dealing with their costs for what they may or may not decide to give you. Rather a long, nasty process that would turn me off from collecting Soviet awards even more than the recent quadrupling of prices!

Hope that spells things out!

Dave

[Dolf]

Should we be having this discussion? This forum is NOT closed??

Ed,

Does your question concern the fact that someone not being a member could have access to the Forum and read the posts?

Well, if that is what your question, I believe that unfortunatelly the Forum is not closed and anyone not being a member can have access to any post here and read whatever is said

Not like the SA Forum, where guests can not enter the Forum and only have access to the Home page.

And I say unfortunatelly because I agree 100% with Dave, that some information should be kept confidential or eventually only shared by email or PM, between trustworthy members.

Sadly some people have a tendency to talk too much...

Maybe the KGB isn't out there anymore but there are others...

Rick, I couldn't agree more, "tact and discretion, comrades!" indeed

Anyway, back to the subject.

Dave, is the OoOR considered a military or a civilian award? As it can be awarded to both military and civilian, I guess it's more a kind of civilian award, right?

Dolf

Edited March 3, 2006 by Dolf

[NavyFCO]

Dave, is the OoOR considered a military or a civilian award? As it can be awarded to both military and civilian, I guess it's more a kind of civilian award, right?

It's considered a civilian award - much like the RBL and others, though it could still be awarded to the military. One of those ones that's like the Lenin... it was a "governmental" award, meaning that it could be awarded to anyone the government saw fit, be they military, civilian, foreign, etc.

Dave

[Ed_Haynes]

Ed,

Does your question concern the fact that someone not being a member could have access to the Forum and read the posts?

Well, if that is what your question, I believe that unfortunatelly the Forum is not closed and anyone not being a member can have access to any post here and read whatever is said

Not like the SA Forum, where guests can not enter the Forum and only have access to the Home page.

And I say unfortunatelly because I agree 100% with Dave, that some information should be kept confidential or eventually only shared by email or PM, between trustworthy members.

Sadly some people have a tendency to talk too much...

Maybe the KGB isn't out there anymore but there are others...

Dolf:

My concern is very simple: That the information that is shared on the forum is open and accessible to all and sundry, but not only to those that have a legitimate interest and involvement. All ain't "gentlemen" who visit here. That is a legitimate choice by the forum administrator. At least we are not like other fora -- not to be named here -- where the forum administrators dwell in the deep clinical delusion that they own everything posted on the (their?) forum and have thereby the implicit right to steal our original work. Nevertheless, the images and research that are posted here are things which we (the creators of this research and knowledge) may not wish to be shared with every Google spider and information thief who strolls through. (See my signature, though it is commonly ignored.)

I find your mention of the SAGongs site to be odd, at best. And I am not sure I totally appreciate your reference. I do restrict this site (subject to a simple sign-up procedure) so that casual users and internet-trolling spiders cannot gain access. I do not require payment or any ideological litmus test to gain access, merely a simple subscription procedure -- without illegible code-boxes. Frankly, I and others on the SAGongs forum have posted enough original research there -- pending eventual publication -- there that we'd rather it not be stolen by eBrigands. Maybe it is just that I have just gone through (though nether case is "resolved" in any sense) two major episodes of flagrant intellectual property theft with a major phaleristic journal that it servesto make me sensitive (OK, maybe over-sensitive?) to such shameless theft. Likewise, I shall never again post on at least two of the major phaleristic fora simply because the "prentitious owners" think they own everything posted there.

You are certainby invited, any time you wish, to sign up for the SAGongs forum for a single visit and never return; it costs me (and you) no more and no less to pay for the forum software and website (close on to $500 per year) whether you visit only once or fifty times per day.

Having seen my original professionally done primary-source-based research stolen, twice, yes, I am sensitive. When it happens to you, you may well understand.

Moreover, in the present case, I am mainly intensely concerned with the potential legal issues that may arise for a good friend of us all in circumstances that are, at best, legally ambiguous. We owe him at least that simple common courtesy of shelter, do we not?

Any questions, I shall happily deal with off-list, by PM.

Ed

But this is , sorry.

Edited March 3, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[order_of_victory]

Sorry about that I picked up his name somewere else in the forum, I did not releise Russia was still tuchy about such things

[Dolf]

Dave,

Thanks for the clarification.

Dolf

[Dolf]

Ed,

Email sent.

Dolf

[Dolf]

Sorry about that I picked up his name somewere else in the forum, I did not releise Russia was still tuchy about such things

Emery,

I know you weren't the 1st one to post our researcher's name openly here and that it was first posted by another member on another thread on the Forum, I also saw that post you mention.

As mentioned by Rick and other members some info should remain confidential, it's a question of common sense!

I feel responsible as I'm the one who in the 1st place gave this info to that member who posted it openly on another thread. But I did it privately, by PM, on another Forum, and it wasn't supposed to be openly revealed.

Anyway, that will teach me not to provide such info again when someone else will ask for it.

Dolf

[HuliganRS]

Dolf:

...At least we are not like other fora -- not to be named here -- where the forum administrators dwell in the deep clinical delusion that they own everything posted on the (their?) forum and have thereby the implicit right to steal our original work...

Ed

But this is , sorry.

Ed, Ed, Ed,

I thought we decided to leave this "crap" in the past!

Why do you still harbor ill feelings? I welcomed you back and offered your old User ID back. You are the only one that we have welcomed back! Others are still banned and will stay that way...

Each Forum has their rules. We learn to live with it.

Rusty.

[Riley1965]

Dolf,

I apologize for revealing the name of the researcher. I didn't fully realize the consequences. Be assured that any mention of any individual researcher will be handled by PM or E-mail. Again, I am VERY, VERY SORRY!!!!! This apology applies to all members of this forum as well.

Mike

Ed, Ed, Ed,

I thought we decided to leave this "crap" in the past!

Why do you still harbor ill feelings? I welcomed you back and offered your old User ID back. You are the only one that we have welcomed back! Others are still banned and will stay that way...

Each Forum has their rules. We learn to live with it.

Rusty.

Edited March 3, 2006 by Riley1965

[Dolf]

Dolf,

I apologize for revealing the name of the researcher. I didn't fully realize the consequences. Be assured that any mention of any individual researcher will be handled by PM or E-mail. Again, I am VERY, VERY SORRY!!!!! This apology applies to all members of this forum as well.

Mike

Mike,

Now that it's done, it's done. The only thing that can be done for correcting the mistake is what Rick already did on this thread, which is delete the info. I don't know if it was also deleted on the other thread where you originally posted it, please check it. And if by any chance you have posted this info on other Forums, please delete it.

My advice: Please just use some common sense when posting some info. There are things that might remain confidential.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, apologies accepted. Incident forgotten.

Best wishes,

Dolf

[Guest Rick Research]

No apologies needed...

how lucky lucky WE are not to live in a place where such things ARE problematic.

And yes, I am compulsively thurrah and went and did the other too.

In future if anyone happens to publicly mention Our Unsung Hero's name/address by mistake and you spot it before I do, contact me and I'll edit and contact the new person, who wouldn't realize, of course.

Researchers Of The World, Unite!

[Riley1965]

I have removed the name and e-mail of the researcher from the other forum and left a note for them to PM or e-mail me for contact info.

Doc

[Guest Rick Research]