China Great joke: Order of the DD 1st type

[paul wood]

It's nice to see that even top Chinese orders are still 'affordable' compared to Tsarist stuff

Actually Imperial Russian material is getting considerably cheaper, all but the rarities are starting to become affordable (partially I suspect because some of the major buyers were Ukrainian), however the Soviet market seems to be holding its own.

Paul

[utopis]

partially I suspect because some of the major buyers were Ukrainian

How does that change anything?

[paul wood]

Because none of them were present either in Spirit or in Person at the last M&E sale. Whether it is because there is a problem getting hold of their money or what I have no idea, I just know that the imperial section was considerably weaker and that which did sell was purchased by non-Ukrainians, where as a year or more ago they would have purchased a large proportion, if not by lot, certainly by value. I can only comment from what I have noted. I would be delighted if it didn't change anything but alas....

Paul

[utopis]

I see. Well it might be premature to judge the market by one sale. One thing is for sure: everyone who was wealthy before the trouble started there, still is.

[JapanX]

The successor bidder, a well-known businessman Cao Minghcao, then refused to pay the 28 million euro successful bid saying the bids were for "moral and patriotic grounds".

Tight-laced gentleman :lol:

[JapanX]

Of course this price drop has nothing to do with "ukrainians from M&E" (whoever these gents might be)

Prices for Imperial Russia are falling here.

In Russia.

And they will continue to fall.

This is the real reason

[utopis]

Of course this price drop has nothing to do with "ukrainians from M&E" (whoever these gents might be)

Prices for Imperial Russia are falling here.

In Russia.

And they will continue to fall.

This is the real reason

?

[JapanX]

Yep.

I think we are looking at another (more serious) turn of crisis,

Everybody are tighten their budgets + the markets of Imperial Russia and Soviet ODMs were (and still are) heavily overpriced.

Phaleristic market here and in Ukraine is in a deep stagnation.

P.S. Personally I think chinese ODMs are already overpriced and will become even more overpriced in the near feature.

Edited July 25, 2014 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Just to cheer you up a little bit

A set of Edmond Paul Emmanuel de Prelle de la Nieppe

[JapanX]

As for the current prices ....

A year ago this piece went for 26 k`s (euros, since it was sold in Germany)

[JapanX]

and this exellent set went for 17,5 k`s

[JapanX]

So I woudn`t say that M&E brest star went underpriced

[KIMKAN]

Dear all,

Nobody can challenge the fact that art prices (including numismatic items, medals, orders and decorations....) bear a strong relationship with the current state of the economy and the (apparent) financial propsperity of a country at a given point in time. What we have all observed over the past ten to fifteen years with respect to Russian and Chinese medals testifies to this. You need both trucks of money, a taste for your own country's history and also an occasional appetite for show-off and public tap-dancing at the forefront of an auction room to drive prices that high. China is still in that mood these days as the economy is still vibrant and expanding, money readily available, "nationalistic taste" very present and willingness to be regarded as a fast lane driver in auction rooms quite easy to spot. To top it all, number of high-quality Chinese items is not that large due to limited award policy at the onset combined to many civil and international war destructions at a later stage. As a result, we may still expect big surprises when it comes to record-breaking prices.

Russia seems to go towards a completely different direction. Current economic and financial situation is just on the verge of disaster and things will get worse before they get any better. International sanctions and penalties resulting from the Ukrainian crisis will hit hard in 2014 and 2015 and are likely to shake the Russian economy upside down. No doubt some corporates and financial institutions will soon go by the wayside. Why would you expect art prices to keep going up at a time those affluent buyers of the past start thinking how to stack up money outside their own country ? Trust and stability is a very important factor in the mind of the collector turned investor as this dual nature is at stake at these price levels.

Regars to all

KimKan

[drclaw]

A very insightful analysis KimKan. I would fully agree. This one is the clincher.

To top it all, number of high-quality Chinese items is not that large due to limited award policy at the onset combined to many civil and international war destructions at a later stage.

Pick a major auction house catalogue and you're likely to see multiple examples of Imperial Russian and Soviet orders compared to Chinese ones (at least Qing and Early Republic awards).

This does not of course mean that one is more or less desirable than the other. Only that different market dynamics apply.

[JapanX]

I think it`s not the number of awards that counts.

It`s all about the number of collectors who want this or that trinket and their purchasing power

[JapanX]

Russia seems to go towards a completely different direction. Current economic and financial situation is just on the verge of disaster and things will get worse before they get any better. International sanctions and penalties resulting from the Ukrainian crisis will hit hard in 2014 and 2015 and are likely to shake the Russian economy upside down.

Prices were droping steadily over the last 6 year.

Current situation with prices for imperial russia orders has nothing to do with the "sunctions and penalties".

Market was heavily overpriced.

[hc8604]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/interiorsandshopping/antiques/9075120/Mystery-over-51m-sale-of-Chinese-vase.html

Bidder refused to pay the 20% fee of £8.3 million. Total sale was over £51 million. The most expensive bidder remorse?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2263411/20m-Chinese-vase-finally-paid-solicitor-half-50m-went-auction.html

Sold for half the price about 2 years later after much drama.

[KIMKAN]

Dear all,

Another ODD 1st type Russian breast star with the chop "MB" of Mikhail Bogdanov is up on the blocks. It will be auctioned off on September 23rd by Galerie Numismatique in Vienna - Austria. Different style from the Spink auction breast star but very elegant. Seems to be a 3rd Class (grade difficult to identify) with its typical central blue stone. The central blue medallion looks identical to those we find on the breast star made by Godet of Berlin, adding probability to the fact that this type of central medallion comes from China and was simply added to a locally made breast star, made either in Russia or in Germany.

There are other interesting and high quality Chinese imperial awards on this sale. It is regrettable that some fakes have managed to sneak into this auction as well and that the sash ribbon of the 1st Class Golden Grain set has nothing to do with that order.

The link is attached :

http://coins-la-galerie-numismatique.com/auction-xxii/china/order-double-dragon-0

Regards to all.

KimKan

[paul wood]

"It is regrettable that some fakes have managed to sneak into this auction as well"

Forgive him Lord he knows not what he does.

Paul

[JapanX]

Forgive him Lord he knows not what he does.

To say nothing about

Judge not, and you shall not be judged

[JapanX]

Another ODD 1st type Russian breast star with the chop "MB"

Let`s take a look

[JapanX]

Stand-alone МБ (at pin!) + pretty unusual form of the mark

Compare it with these

[JapanX]

Interesting story with these MБ`s

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-6141-0-18133700-1409327334.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-6141-0-50635600-1409327337.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-6141-0-43056300-1409327341.jpg

[JapanX]

Impossible to find two central medallions that will look alike

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-6141-0-59958900-1409327415.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-6141-0-37666600-1409327419.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-6141-0-97520700-1409327424.jpg

[KIMKAN]

Dear all,

Yes, a Russian makers'mark without the silver fineness guarantee mark looks a bit strange. The attached picture come from the Kunker auction of September 2011. Similar breast star but with all the required stamps and hallmarks. Feel a bit better about that one.

Regards to all.

KimKan