Unidentified Police Long Staff

[Nightbreak]

I was successful at Lockdale's the other month and picked up this George III long staff at the auction for a relatively good price. The others being sold were Perth/Leith and Edinburgh High Constable Staves, but this one was unidentified, purportedly from 1805-1810.

25 inches in length, it comes with the GIIIR cypher at the top and a printing of a house and 41. at the bottom. It's slightly difficult to get a good shot without getting that band of light over the picture, but I took a few to show the angles.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Nightbreak - I think you have acquired a very nice - and collectable piece. Just to set the record straight - this is not a long

staff. These were usually over 5feet long (150cm) and were carried by constables prior to about 1780. After, shorter staves and then truncheons came into use. What you have here is a ceremonial staff for one of the Scottish towns that had High Constables.

These included Edinburgh , Perth, Leith and also, the Palace of Hollyrood House , in Edinburgh.

I have found it very difficult to actually see detail on the photos - perhaps have another go - or, a rough drawing ? My feeling

is that this could be an old staff for Hollyrood House - which is the Royal Palace when visits to Scotland are made. Mervyn

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello,

Very nice find indeed, congratulations.

I thought Mervyn said "Hollywood" and was just about to give him the gears.

Regards

Brian

[Nightbreak]

Mervyn: Yes, sorry, I was just going by the auction description. It probably should have read Police Staff.

I'm going to try and do something about a better picture, but the curve of the staff tends to attract the light source into a line at just the wrong spots on 'close up', while 'super closeup' is just a bit too close, it seems. I might have to get it in a more open, naturally lit area. It is a wide house, certainly, and has a chimney, what looks to be a path, and several windows.

[Mervyn Mitton]

If you have the chance to buy - do so. The painting looks very interesting and requires some research - particularly

the building. Mervyn

[Nightbreak]

This has already been purchased. The description did say long stave, but my own measurements put it at 25 inches. I just double-checked the Lockdale's archive from August. So the mistake was at their end.

Have reached out to an old contact in the Royal Collection Armory to see if he has any like it in the vaults.

[Nightbreak]

My contact is apparently still alive! He has passed my question onto the curator at Holyrood itself and we'll see if it's a match.

[Nightbreak]

Took some more pictures; we'll see if they help

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[Mervyn Mitton]

Nightbreak - I have studied the pictures most carefully and have to be honest I can't work them out. What is the object - with

what appears to be windows, above the numerals. Is it part of a Crown ? Perhaps try another picture where the whole

staff can be seen - may make it a little clearer ? Mervyn

[Nightbreak]

Mervyn: It seems to be a house, of all things, with a long path in the middle (three or four stone steps at the end), one window on the left, two on the right, and a chimney at the top. The problem is that it goes around more than half of the shaft., so a straight-on image doesn't give us the full thing.

I have not heard back from the curator at Holyroodhouse yet, unfortunately. The 'passed-on' request may have gotten buried in her inbox.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Nightbreak

[Mervyn Mitton]

The Holyrood House ones are quite distinctive - if my memory is correct. I am beginning to think that you have something far rarer -

just possibly, the Gatekeeper or, more probably, the High Steward of a large Scottish Estate. If my surmise is corrrect it will probably

be a Titled estate. With English large estates the landowner would be the local magistrate and a tipstaff would be in front of him

when he sat as such. With Scotland - and it's history of Staves (or Staffs - the word is a plurality) I would not be surprised to

find this on the Bench to show his authority.

Now, where do we go from here ? Just a personal approach - I would have a nice leaflet witha variety of pictures of the staff -

and send it to every Scottish museum asking for their help. Also, the author of a history of Scottish tipstaffs and truncheons died recently. At this time I can't remember his name - however, I expect some of our members will have bought the book and will

be able to give details. There just might be a mention of this type of staff ? Best wishes Mervyn

[Dave Wilkinson]

The Holyrood House ones are quite distinctive - if my memory is correct. I am beginning to think that you have something far rarer -

just possibly, the Gatekeeper or, more probably, the High Steward of a large Scottish Estate. If my surmise is corrrect it will probably

be a Titled estate. With English large estates the landowner would be the local magistrate and a tipstaff would be in front of him

when he sat as such. With Scotland - and it's history of Staves (or Staffs - the word is a plurality) I would not be surprised to

find this on the Bench to show his authority.

Now, where do we go from here ? Just a personal approach - I would have a nice leaflet witha variety of pictures of the staff -

and send it to every Scottish museum asking for their help. Also, the author of a history of Scottish tipstaffs and truncheons died recently. At this time I can't remember his name - however, I expect some of our members will have bought the book and will

be able to give details. There just might be a mention of this type of staff ? Best wishes Mervyn

Mervyn,

The late John Green is the gent who published the book on Scottish Police insignia etc.

Dave.

[Robin Lumsden]

I met John Green back around 2006, when he visited the Fife police museum (I was curator) to get info for his book.

Perfect gent.

Sad to hear of his death.

[Nightbreak]

I'm friendly with a few museums here in town. Their curators can help point me to the right people, I think. I'll ask around.

[Nightbreak]

It does have a pair of holes right through it, just at either side of the GIIIR, probably for a strap. So it must have been carried.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Nightbreak

[Ian Shepherd]

It does have a pair of holes right through it, just at either side of the GIIIR, probably for a strap. So it must have been carried.

Not necessarily people drill holes in them to hang them up.

Ian

[Nightbreak]

Not necessarily people drill holes in them to hang them up.

Ian

Quite true. The holes, frankly, are at the opposite ends of where you'd have them usually drilled, I think.