Fake Copy (fake) Miniature Rising Sun Medal on ebay

[RAINBOW CHOCOLATE]

Found this on ebay, and without a doubt, 100% it is a copy fake replica or whatever you wish to call it, it is not made at the Japan Mint.

The ebay item number is: 361140941280 (search on ebay)

The first question is probably: How do you know it is fake?

1 Look at the red cloisonné enamel - there are two indicators here - the shine it gives when light is reflected on it and the shine it gives when light is not reflected on it, either way it looks like a metallic type shine - that is because under a copy fake red cloisonné area typically there is a cheap metallic reflector thing, which a mint made authentic one will not have. Also the cloisonné on a fake is almost paper thin while on a real one you can see how thick it really is by comparing.

2. Look at the thickness of the cloisonné enamel (or lack of thickness in this case). To compare look at the same sellers other miniature rising sun 5th class for sale (ebay item number 361140942501 (which is authentic and really a mint made item) you can compare the shine and thickness of the two and also look at the mint mark (kanji characters) which is absent from the fake, the fake has that stamp in red which the mint does not use on these inside the cases. Also, notice the inner white lining that the fake uses inside the lid of the case, this is not the inner white lining used by the mint.

So both fake (6th class miniature) and a real (5th class) are there to compare - one may say well one is a 6th so the cloisonné is of lower quality - that is not the case and will never be the case, the mint uses the same thick, high quality, deep/dark cloisonné on all rising sun medals and they also uses the same 4 kanji characters to indicate it is made at the mint (no hanko or chop stamp).

I sincerely hope this helps someone to avoid getting tricked, I have been duped by fake rising suns (years ago) - I took them apart and saw how cheaply they are made, basically utter garbage.

[JapanX]

The ebay item number is: 361140941280 (search on ebay)

If you are talking about this piece

[JapanX]

[JapanX]

[JapanX]

then it looks like totally ok piece to me

[RAINBOW CHOCOLATE]

You must read what I wrote and compare, it is an absolute fake while the 5th class he is selling is real, very easy to compare. Please compare the "metallic" shine to the previous fake rising sun thread which is now below this thread.

Also, if you took both a fake and a real rising sun, laid them flat and looked at the actual thickness of the red cloisonné - you would clearly and undoubtedly see that the real cloisonné is very thick and the fake paper thin.

If it was okay, I would not be so adamant, if there was a sliver of a doubt - I would not post and waste my time here.

Edited December 10, 2014 by RAINBOW CHOCOLATE

[fukuoka]

You are 100% mistaken. Obviously you have never seen a miniature Rising Sun medal. This is my auction and I stand by it fully.

[fukuoka]

You are the same person who caused an uproar over what you perceived to be shill bidding on another auction, right?

No one will be 'getting tricked.'

[RAINBOW CHOCOLATE]

Please compare to your miniature 5th class, especially the cloisonné and note the difference. Compare your 6th miniature rising sun cloisonné to the last fake that you tried to sell by mistake, that thread is below this thread. Note also that the Japan mint never used a hanko or chop mark stamp on the inside lid - they always use the four kanji characters. I am not out to hurt anyone, just want people to be aware and to understand the minor differences. I only know about this specific area because I mistakenly purchased some fakes just like yours and I know them quite well. Don't forget to see the thread below this one.

[paul wood]

I find this difficult to comprehend as according to this post all miniature Japanese Orders and medals on foreign bars are fakes, surely we are talking about official and unofficial productions rather than fakes. If one uses this premise then virtually all miniatures are fakes. Perhaps my brain is hurting too much today.

Paul

[fukuoka]

To RAINBOW CHOCOLATE:

Yes, well, if you know all about the different casts and mints of the Japanese Mint, please be sure and document your evidence before accusing others of being deceptive. I have noticed that all of your posts here have been negative, yet all of your evidence is anecdotal. Please cite your references about the Japanese Mint. I would be pleased to see such research.

In addition, where is your evidence of the Japanese Mint hallmark? And are you really willing to believe that the case, too, is fake?

If you are willing to prove your case, I am willing to concede. However, after handling at least 100 miniatures from the Mint, I am confident this is an authentic piece.

Best,

Rich

[JapanX]

You must read what I wrote and compare ...

I did (twice ) and this piece still looks ok to me.

As for the "metallic shine", "thickness of red enamel", etc. - miniatures have quite different characteristics than full-size orders.

Edited December 10, 2014 by JapanX

[JapanX]

... and they also uses the same 4 kanji characters to indicate it is made at the mint (no hanko or chop stamp).

Take a look at this sacred treasure mini

[fukuoka]

I find this difficult to comprehend as according to this post all miniature Japanese Orders and medals on foreign bars are fakes, surely we are talking about official and unofficial productions rather than fakes. If one uses this premise then virtually all miniatures are fakes. Perhaps my brain is hurting too much today.

Paul

Hello Paul,

Miniatures from Japan have to be privately ordered from the Japanese Mint, and when doing so, proof of receiving the actual award (full-sized medal) is needed. The costs are paid for by the recipient, and they are substantial. It is actually cheaper to wait for a used miniature to appear!

Best,

Rich

Edited December 10, 2014 by fukuoka

[JapanX]

Badge

[RAINBOW CHOCOLATE]

Compare to your previously listed fake rising sun breast badge - the cloisonné is of the same quality (most likely the two items were produced by the same "maker" but not by the Japan Mint, ultimately it is up to collectors to make informed choices. I have been informed the hard way in the past by buying the fakes, the Japanese mint does not put a hanko inside the case, they always use the four kanji characters, the evidence is in the product itself. I apologize if this offends but the 6th is not real (again, compare to the previously offered breast badge which was taken down by yourself because it was fake, look closely at the cloisonné enamel). This is not a negative post, it is an informed post by an informed collector. I know you have a web site and all that with all the great "gleaned" info, perhaps you will learn form this site as well? My apologies if this upsets anyone, it was not meant to, it is meant to inform buyers. My advice to a curious person with the money, buy the 5th and 6th class miniature and compare. There is a clear difference in the quality, they are both not made at the Japan Mint as is put forth in the listing.

[JapanX]

... the Japanese mint does not put a hanko inside the case, they always use the four kanji characters, the evidence is in the product itself.

I wonder why do you think that mint manufactures cases for its orders and minies :whistle:

[fukuoka]

Compare to your previously listed fake rising sun breast badge - the cloisonné is of the same quality (most likely the two items were produced by the same "maker" but not by the Japan Mint, ultimately it is up to collectors to make informed choices. I have been informed the hard way in the past by buying the fakes, the Japanese mint does not put a hanko inside the case, they always use the four kanji characters, the evidence is in the product itself. I apologize if this offends but the 6th is not real (again, compare to the previously offered breast badge which was taken down by yourself because it was fake, look closely at the cloisonné enamel). This is not a negative post, it is an informed post by an informed collector. I know you have a web site and all that with all the great "gleaned" info, perhaps you will learn form this site as well? My apologies if this upsets anyone, it was not meant to, it is meant to inform buyers. My advice to a curious person with the money, buy the 5th and 6th class miniature and compare. There is a clear difference in the quality, they are both not made at the Japan Mint as is put forth in the listing.

Again, please provide evidence before accusing. Where is this information you have about the Japanese Mint and the boxes?

I am not upset because you are wondering if it is fake. I am upset at your authoritative tone without really backing up your claims. You claim to know all about the Japanese Mint and its products, yet cite nothing. And sentences like this

"I know you have a web site and all that with all the great "gleaned" info, perhaps you will learn form this site as well?"

It seems that you are trying to antagonize people, not trying to add to the community. Perhaps it is you who should glean info from my site as well?

Anyway, I stand by this medal as 100% authentic; you think it is fake. You have presented your case, I have responded, and that is that.

Edited December 10, 2014 by fukuoka

[RAINBOW CHOCOLATE]

Forget about the boxes, more importantly look very closely at the red cloisonne, I beg you to compare the cloisonné enamel of the 6th miniature rising sun to the real 5th mini you have for sale AND compare them both to your previously offered fake rising sun breast badge (other topic on this forum where there are pictures of it). The cloisonné should be the exactly same quality, thick, dark when no lights are aimed at it and with no metallic shine like the 6th mini and the previously offered fake breast star. Why have you never responded to the thread about the fake breast star??, you did remove it from auction, but never a response to those on the forum. I respect the forum and the serious collectors. I am not trying to upset you, just trying to get you to look very closely at the red cloisonné enamel and understand the differences. My authoritative tone comes at the expense of spending money on these fake items accidentally and realizing that there are fake rising sun medals out there with the same exact red cloisonné as that breast star you tried to sell. I feel really bad for whoever gets that 6th class whether they realize or not, it is a shame and that is that.

On a lighter note, you have a good website and I respect the work you have done, the "gleaned info" was something you had wrote about your site on your site which I thought was a good term, no offense at all.

[fukuoka]

Forget about the boxes? You are the one who relied upon that point as crucial:

"Note also that the Japan mint never used a hanko or chop mark stamp on the inside lid - they always use the four kanji characters."

And now you say forget about it.

I have had enough. It is not as if these are $1000 pieces. They sell for fairly low prices, so I cannot imagine anyone spending time faking them. The 2nd class badges are different--they can sell for a lot. But this case is different.

You seem to think I am running a fake medal mill, constantly churning out these pieces. You overestimate me.

While looking at the red center, be sure to compare the green enamel kiri crest above. I am sure you did this. Oh, and please do not neglect the ribbons or rosettes. And the metal fastener. And the polished silver reverses. And the cases, which only vary in the stamp. Did you compare those? The red center varies in quality, but the other pieces do not. So how can you be so confident and claim I am a fraud? Again, since you are so sure, state the documentary evidence you suggest you are familiar with. Do not hide behind anonymity and unsubstantiated claims.

To end this, I am sure your observations are valuable--I just wish you had more than anecdotal evidence. And as for your lighter note, complimenting me on my website is a typical method of trying to gain credibility. No need to do that. My website speaks for itself and has enough hits and regular viewers to be OK. If you have any documentary evidence to add to my site, I will be pleased to credit it to your name. However, I suspect you neither read nor write Japanese or Chinese, so you have no access to the documents. If I am mistaken, I will be the first to apologize.

Best,

Rich

Edited December 11, 2014 by fukuoka

[RAINBOW CHOCOLATE]

You never answered the question about comparing the 6th mini cloisonné enamel to the fake breast star you tried to sell, you have consistently avoided that question.

Is the red cloisonné of the 6th mini the same as the 5th mini? Or, is it the same as the replica/fake 2nd class breast star you tried to sell awhile ago?

[RAINBOW CHOCOLATE]

I apologize, for not reading completely - you did compare the cloisonné and you did see the difference in the quality, I know these medals well and have collected for years - the mint will only use that deep dark red cloisonné, not the metallic shiny thing that is very thin, I took mine apart because I could tell it was not mint made. The metallic shine type cloisonné is by some shop in Japan which obviously makes medals using that same signature shiny cloisonné that the mint will not use.

I have never seen the mint use a hanko inside the case but I do not have documentation, just experience from collecting.

I am not out to get you or anything even like that. I am deeply sorry if you felt that way, for me it is all about the medals. You seem to do good work, better thank OK in my own opinion and I would never want collectors to think of you in a bad light.

[JapanX]

This "discussion" become more and more depressing ...

[JapanX]

[JapanX]