The first American Shots of WWI - French 75mm - West Point Museum

[Hoss]

Irish

I only knew the supposed name of the US 75 was 'Bridget' #17318 then I saw this post last night, I didnt even know what museum it was at I'm a Imperial German type dude lol!

Eric

[ralstona]

Hoss, the gun at Cantigny is repainted, not the WP gun. The 1st Div. website clearly says the French did paint there guns this way. So it is not impossible to think this gun retains its original paint. If the French gave it to us, and we were eager to use it, I imagine it would not have been messed with.

[ralstona]

I doubt Pershing wanted it to take it apart. The museum placard said he wanted it for West Points collection. The 75mm was old tech by this point.

Edited January 1, 2015 by ralstona

[IrishGunner]

Irish

I only knew the supposed name of the US 75 was 'Bridget' #17318 then I saw this post last night, I didnt even know what museum it was at I'm a Imperial German type dude lol!

Eric

I hear you dude! I've spent more of my time pouring over Imperial German stuff as well.

And like I said, I'm embarrassed because this is my regiment! I should already know the whole story.

Nonetheless, this has opened an excellent discussion and point for research. You both have added great info that is helpful.

[ralstona]

I can only make out the last three numbers from my pics..."579"...I think

[IrishGunner]

I doubt Pershing wanted it to take it apart. The museum placard said he wanted it for West Points collection. The 75mm was old tech by this point.

"Old tech" true, but still revolutionary in many ways. The French first fielded the 75mm in 1897, but closely guarded its specs. Nonetheless, I agree it wasn't for "reverse engineering." The US Army decided to go with 75mm as its standard caliber (as opposed to 3in) in spring 1917 and entered negotiations with the French to produce the field guns in the US under license. French advisers came to the US and US ordnance officers went to French arsenals to coordinate manufacture.

So, no reason to be skeptical Hoss. There were already 75's in the US and plans underway to manufacture them by the time the first US 75mm rounds were fired at the Germans.

[IrishGunner]

Here's another 75mm in the "typical French and American 2 Color Camouflage."

The Lovett collection is known for historical accuracy.

[ralstona]

Here's one that has been repainted..."with a "dazzle" camouflage pattern as per the 1917 U.S. specifications."

Any idea what specs this refers to?

This one is at the historical society of the Georgia National Guard. Here is a link, lots more pics. :

http://www.historicalordnanceworks.com/French75MM.htm

[Paul R]

Renault 17.

My wife loves these!!! She says that we are now going to Westpoint to see this in person!! Thank you for posting the image.

[ralstona]

You won't be disappointed even if they didn't have a 17. So much history and a really beautiful location. The museum isn't huge but they have some amazing stuff. I live about 45 minutes away. The school I teach at takes our juniors there every year on a field trip.

One other thing I've got to do is to get the text of the small bronze plaque on the guns shield. That may give some more info.

[Hoss]

Eric, the serial numbers are only useful if we can find documents that authenticate the serial number of the gun that fired the alleged first round.

Gents

The serial I quoted is incorrect 17318 that's the number of another gun at a Memorial. The WP gun is #13579 so we are left with Blimey! well for me: Is the West Point gun 'Bridget'? or just a story made up?

btw the plague should read 'First Artillery Shell fired' if they make that claim imo and I noticed a period image that floats around the net showing a crew with their gun. This picture is shown in a lot of museums even Europe when displaying a piece an original image also resides in the National Archives so I'm told.

Regards

Pain in the bottom Hoss lol!

Eric

[ralstona]

The WP gun is not Bridget, that is a different gun at a different museum. Bridget was at Aberdeen and now has been moved to another museum in VA. The gun at WP has been there since 1918. I sent WP a email this morning asking for more information.

As IrishGunner mentioned earlier. I think this is as simple as this: 2 museums both claiming to have the same artifact, i.e. the gun that fired the first shot of the war. You can imagine why that would be a popular claim and also why it is difficult to prove.

It could be that one museum has the real deal and the other has a spurious piece. Or maybe both are spurious pieces. Or maybe both are right and fired together. Would they really have dragged just one gun up?

I think we have the possibility to solve a bit of a mystery. Which could be fun.

But Hoss... I don't understand why you are so adamant that the WP gun couldn't be right? Why the insistence on a conspiracy theory? Are reputable museums like the West Point Museum really in the business of perpetuating lies?

You seem to refuse to admit some established facts here.

1. The French did paint their guns this way (you implied earlier that someone was doing drugs when they painted this one, which is silly).

2. The Americans drew this gun from French stock, so it would have been painted in the French manner.

3. The US had a 1917 spec that our guns were to be painted in the French style which breaks up the silhouette of the gun.

4. The gun you keep mentioning, Bridget, is not the gun at WP.

5. The WP gun comes with a seemingly plausible story. Sent back to the WP for display. This definitely fits a pattern. The campus is littered with artillery pieces sent back to WP by grads as trophies. There must be 200 of them all over campus.

6. The gun would never have been sent back in 1917 to have it reverse engineered. We were already making them here.

7. There is a pic of the WP from no later than the 1930s, on campus, with the exact paint job it has today. How could the gun now on display be Bridget which is grey today when there is visual evidence of a painted gun at WP? What happened to the original painted one? WP lost it and brought Bridget to WP and repainted it? Why? I looked very closely at that WP gun, that paint has been their for a VERY long time, I'd bet my life on it.

There I've said my piece.

Art

P.S. I attach a picture of some of the other artillery pieces on campus at WP.

Edited January 2, 2015 by ralstona

[ralstona]

Here is a link to a website that specifically says the two guns are different. I originally claimed this was from Aderdeen's website, but it isn't. It does I believe confirm the guns are different.

Edited January 2, 2015 by ralstona

[IrishGunner]

Gentlemen, I applaud (indeed I rejoice) your enthusiasm about Artillery in the First World War, but let's not get all "Night At The Museum" about it... Let Indiana Jones save the world, we're just trying to solve a contradiction.

As Art states, there are two different guns. The camo gun at West Point. And old gray lady Bridget of internet fame - last seen at Aberdeen Proving Ground (and now probably at Fort Lee, VA). They both have been described as the gun to fire the first US artillery rounds in the First World War.

Hoss, I've already noted the ubiquitous photo on the internet of Bridget in Post #22. And I still believe that photo is staged. Let's not forget many historical moments have been staged after they actually happened - for example raising the flag by Marines on Mount Suribachi at Iwo Jima. That famous image is a staged photo, but it is indeed the most well known. I suspect that Bridget gets her reputation from that staged photo seen on the internet.

Hopefully, Art's email to West Point will yield some documented evidence of their gun's provenance. I will then contact the museum at Fort Lee to ask them for their evidence.

In the meantime, let's tap gloves and return to our corners.

PS: I think there is some angle to buy a round of beers here somewhere...

Edited January 2, 2015 by IrishGunner

[IrishGunner]

Here is a link to the Aberdeen Museum website that specifically says the two guns are different.

Although it's a good webpage showing both guns, unfortunately, Art, that website is not the US Army Ordnance Museum at Aberdeen's website, but rather an individual's personal site with photos from the museum.

[ralstona]

Thanks IrishGunner, your right of course...even if I have always wanted to be Indiana Jones

It is ironic the other gun may now be at Fort Lee, Va as I now live in Fort Lee, NJ ( of bridge-gate fame).

The museum at West Point is an interesting place really. I have never been in a military museum that feels more like a "trophy room". Not in how it is displayed but in what they display. Quite a bit of it (especially from the Mexican War, S-A War, WWI and WWII) are prizes taken by officers and sent back to WP. Clearly they loved the place and wanted a piece there with their name on it.)

Some of acquisition methods today would be "questionable" at best. The Roman legionary's tomb stone sent back from the Italian campaign in WWII comes to mind.

Edited January 2, 2015 by ralstona

[IrishGunner]

So, here's some additional trivia. The last US artillery round fired was by the 11th Field Artillery at 1100, 11 Nov 1918. It was a 155mm French Schneider M1917 of Battery E named "Calamity Jane." Interestingly, the 11th FA was formed in the summer of 1917 from a contingent of soldiers transferred from the 6th Field Artillery!

I've searched the internet, but can't seem to find if this gun also was sent back to the US as a trophy. Here is an alleged photo from the internet:

A short quasi-official history describing the last shot is here.

[IrishGunner]

My wife loves these!!! She says that we are now going to Westpoint to see this in person!! Thank you for posting the image.

Don't forget to show her the cannons!

[Hoss]

Gents

I promise not to say Bridget anymore! that being whatever a lot of on-line and book references may or not have to be adjusted.

Regarding finishes and camouflage that's a complicated and time consuming study, can take decades 'hitting the bricks' and 'whats underneath' from what I can make out so far because Allied isn't really my focus early 75's wore light grey then changed to a medium matt grey very much like German guns. I would be most interested to learn when:

a. The French including official specific dates adopted more than two camouflage colours on the Western Front.

b. Same re: The British Commonwealth and AEF Forces.

Cheers

Eric

[Hoss]

So, here's some additional trivia. The last US artillery round fired was by the 11th Field Artillery at 1100, 11 Nov 1918. It was a 155mm French Schneider M1917 of Battery E named "Calamity Jane." Interestingly, the 11th FA was formed in the summer of 1917 from a contingent of soldiers transferred from the 6th Field Artillery!

I've searched the internet, but can't seem to find if this gun also was sent back to the US as a trophy. Here is an alleged photo from the internet:

155 howitzer.jpg

A short quasi-official history describing the last shot is here.

Oh NO! now we have "Calamity Jane" LOL!

Eric

[IrishGunner]

Gents

I promise not to say Bridget anymore! that being whatever a lot of on-line and book references may or not have to be adjusted.

Regarding finishes and camouflage that's a complicated and time consuming study, can take decades 'hitting the bricks' and 'whats underneath' from what I can make out so far because Allied isn't really my focus early 75's wore light grey then changed to a medium matt grey very much like German guns. I would be most interested to learn when:

a. The French including official specific dates adopted more than two camouflage colours on the Western Front.

b. Same re: The British Commonwealth and AEF Forces.

Cheers

Eric

Eric, you are quite right about the camouflage issue. That's a very consuming study. And you are also right, many pieces painted camo today, are not original. It's good to be skeptical. That's why the document trail becomes important. I agree, even if the West Point gun's paint is original, that doesn't prove anything regarding the claim of firing the first round. We need documentation.

Oh, and not all Bridgets are so bad...

Edited January 2, 2015 by IrishGunner

[IrishGunner]

Oh NO! now we have "Calamity Jane" LOL!

Eric

I knew you'd appreciate that splendid coincidence!

[J.B.]

The first US shots of the war were fired with this cannon. Pershing personally authorized it's shipment to West Point. It has been there since 1920. More details in description from museum below. You can still see the French unit markings on the side.

This is very interesting, thank you for sharing this. I am still researching military history, and this website is quickly becoming a valuable resource for me. I wonder though, if this cannon was really the first American shot during The Great War, and how many disputes of this claim there are. If somebody knows about other possible contenders, I would appreciate some more to read about this subject.

Fired by my Regiment, the 6th Field Artillery.

Thank you for your service.

[IrishGunner]

This is very interesting, thank you for sharing this. I am still researching military history, and this website is quickly becoming a valuable resource for me. I wonder though, if this cannon was really the first American shot during The Great War, and how many disputes of this claim there are. If somebody knows about other possible contenders, I would appreciate some more to read about this subject.

J.B., I've often wondered this myself. I've seen the "story" phrased alternatively as "first shots" as well as "first artillery shots". I've not seen a reference to the first infantry rifle shots, but then again I haven't looked. But I don't think it should be that difficult to research.

[Hoss]

Gents

A friend sent me these images you can download them beautifully photographed. note the generic pic on one guns plaque. I've noticed that photo was published in an old book since its been well used around the block and back. the gun with the large incredible painting behind it I think is on display at Verdun.

 

Cheers

Eric