Enlisted pilots in combat

[ccj]

Can anyone explain why Grrmany used enlisted pilots during WW1? 

In "Over the Front" there are references to pilots with ranks as low as Flieger and Pioneer. I have seen a few photos on gefreiter rand soldiers wearing pilot badges. I see very little reference to these men as fighter pilots so I assume they were mostly pilots of observation planes and bombers.

Photo of gefreiter from Flickr.   

[ccj]

A photograph of a group of pilots from fliegerabteilung 48. At least one rank of gefreiter or less in crowd.

[jaba1914]

They consider conducting an airplane as something that could be learned by most peoples. Most pilots flow double seater planes and in most cases an officer was the leader of the plane. He took the decisions and directed the pilot.  Another reason was the low numbers of officers. Most were needed for observer training. 

Enlisted pilots were on all units including Jastas and giant planes units.

 

On the navy there were enlisted pilots and observers.

Regards

Alex

[ccj]

Thank you Alex,

 

do do you have an statistics on the number of Flieger, gefreiter, unteroffizier, FW, VFW, etc were pilots during the war?

were there any Flieger or gefreiter who shot down a plane? I wonder if these lower rank troops were used to ground support attacks.

Edited May 24, 2015 by ccj
Spelling

[ccj]

Enlisted Flieger Strap

 

opinions??

[Chip]

Charles,

I think NCO pilots were considered more or less and chauffeurs for the officer observers. Later, they flew single seat fighters in combat. I have a photo album of an NCO pilot that flew an Albatros in Jasta 40.

Your strap is a good one, though quite possibly a private purchase one. Is the tunic an issue or an Eigentumsstück?

Chip 

[ccj]

More photos of tunic. 

[ccj]

Inside

[ccj]

I was hoping for opinions on the tunic and the insignia.

 

 

[ccj]

More of the tunic.

 

[Chip]

Charles,

I forgot to mention that the tunic is all correct, except for the collar disks, which should be Bavarian, not Prussian. The website makes some comment about the tunic being transferred, which I see no evidence of other than the (obviously) replaced NCO disks. They are also obviously not Gefreiter disks, but rather Sergeant disks, which further proves that they were replaced. A Sergeant would also have NCO lace. These would be fairly easy to replace with correct ones.

Chip

Edited May 28, 2015 by Chip

[ccj]

 

Thanks Chip, I too wondered about the Prussian rank and why that simple additional would make them say the tunic was transferred to the Prussians. I would think maybe someone replaced the buttons or that the gefreiter was serving in a Bavarian unit so had a Bavarian tunic and used Prussian rank. Now, I didn't notice the ranks were of NCO size instead of gefreiter. I haven't seen any Bavarian Gefreiter rank for sale.

I do wonder if the front of the collar once had NCO lace to it. It almost looks like some evidence of something was there. Maybe a stain.

 

I have never seen a Bavarian gefreiter pilot. I have also never seen a gefreiter pilot of any kingdom wearing both a Iron Cross and pilot Badge. There are loops for three badges. I assume a Pilot badge, wound badge, and some sort of breast badge, ie, EKI or a Duchy breast badge. If Bavarian then that makes me wonder....

​

[Chip]

Charles,

I don't see any evidence of NCO collar lace. I don't even think there is enough room between the Litzen and the bottom of the collar to fit any in. Besides, I think when a tunic of this branch had NCO lace, the Litzen was reduced from two bars to a single bar.

Chip

[ccj]

Chip, you are correct about the kitten being single for Nco. I see it non regulation on many tunics like the person had the tresse sewn over the existing litzen

[jaba1914]

Thank you Alex,

 

do do you have an statistics on the number of Flieger, gefreiter, unteroffizier, FW, VFW, etc were pilots during the war?

were there any Flieger or gefreiter who shot down a plane? I wonder if these lower rank troops were used to ground support attacks.

​I found an enlisted jasta pilot who had a victory.

Marat Schumm was with Jasta 52 since Feb. 1918 and had his first victory on 17.05.1918. It was a S.E.5a. He got the EK2 on 30.04.1918 (see document) and was promoted to Sergeant on 11.07.1918 and on 15.07.1918 to Unteroffizier. EK1 on 26.07.1918.

Regards

 

Alex

[ccj]

Ok, so an example of a man who was gefreiter with pilot badge and EKII. I notice here as an unteroffizier he still wears the double litzen.

i do hope I can find more examples of enlisted pilots of lower ranks.

[Les]

Some of those enlisted pilots did very well during the war.

One example is Willy Johnke of FAA221. During 1916 and 1917, he piloted observation and ground attack aircraft for Lt. Hans-Georg Horn. In December 1917, Johnke and Horn were both decorated by the Kaiser on the same day. Johnke was awarded the GMVK, and Horn the Pour le Merite. During the spring and summer of 1918, Johnke and Lt. Schaefer were paired up, and both shot down and killed during June 1918. If I recall correctly, Billy Bishop was given credit for that particular aerial victory. Horn was far luckier and survived the war, and then the re-run of 1939-1945.

[Chip]

 I notice here as an unteroffizier he still wears the double litzen.

Charles,

The Prussians and other contingent's enlisted Fliegertruppen wore the single Litze, while the Bavarians wore the double Litzen.

Chip

[ccj]

So, would everyone agree this to me an original Bavarian Flieger tunic to a gefreiter? I cant imagine why the gefreiter buttons are wrong. Why wouldn't someone correct them ot why would they have ever ben wrong?

If these are removed I wonder how much evidence would remain or is the correct gefreiter ranks would cover the area.

[Chip]

Charles,

Given the condition of the tunic and the probability that the larger disks have not been on there for a long time, I would think there would be no problem with a "shadow" of the larger disks. Regardless, the larger disks are not correct. Here is what the size difference is between the Gefreiter and Sergeant disks (2,5 cm vs 2,9cm).

Chip

 

 

[ccj]

Finding wartime bayern gereitenknopf won't be as easy as anything else now that I need a set. 

I'm not sure I'm up for another journey to complete a tunic missing a part

[Chip]

Charles,

I will be a hell of a lot easier than finding a pair of M1907 enlisted shoulder straps from a specific regiment!

 

[Stogieman]

My 2 cents, I think he's enlisted?

[Stogieman]

here's a close up

[Stogieman]

Here's the reason for the whole group!