Saxon IR 139

[Tony]

Hello,

 

I’m trying to find out which British unit was opposite the 139 Saxon Inf. Regt. (40 Div., Inf. Brig. 89?) during the battle of Loos in Autumn 1915.

 

After checking vol. 9 of the Reichsarchiv books I’m none the wiser. It looks like they were west of Lille on 25/9/15 and opposite the 1st British army corps but I’ve seen online that they took part in the fighting at Hulluch. Some battalions were obviously moved around and put into the fighting where needed but was the bulk of 139 IR kept in the line west of Lille?

 

Does anyone know the position of field hospital 7, XIX AK in Sept./Oct. 1915?

 

Any help is much appreciated.

 

Thanks

Tony

[IR 134]

Tony,

the regiment was part of the 24th (2nd saxon) Division

Gruß Stefan

[Tony]

Thanks Stefan but according to GenWiki that was up until mobilisation, or am I misunderstanding it? IR 134 were Saxon too so I imagine you're correct.

Also if the unit was known as Koeniglich Saechsisches 11 Inf. Regt. 139, does that just mean they were 11th in seniority among Saxon regiments?

 

Tony

[IR 134]

45 minutes ago, Tony said:

Thanks Stefan but according to GenWiki that was up until mobilisation, or am I misunderstanding it? IR 134 were Saxon too so I imagine you're correct.

Wiki isn´t correct. Attached a Scan of the saxon ranklist 1914. IR 139 was still a part of 24th Division, 47th brigade in 1914. It only switched the brigade. IR 133 and 134 formed 89th brigade / 40th. division till 1915. Then 89th brigade (IR 133, 139, 179) was transferred in Spring 1915 to 24th. Divison when the composition of german infantry divisions was changed into only one brigade of 3 regiments per division instead of 2 brigades of 2 regiments so far. So IR 139 was transferred into that brigade then as IR 134 left the brigade and became part of 88th. brigade (IR 104, 134, 181) /40th. Division.

 

1 hour ago, Tony said:

Also if the unit was known as Koeniglich Saechsisches 11 Inf. Regt. 139, does that just mean they were 11th in seniority among Saxon regiments?

 

Tony

That´s correct.

 

Gruß Stefan

 

[Tony]

Thanks very much for the confirmation.

Now I need to find exactly where they were in the line/who was opposite at the end of Sept. 1915 so I can hopefully find a little more info from British unit war diaries about their (139 IR) battle at Loos.

Tony

[dksck]

I don't have much to add, but I'll be watching for future posts on your efforts.  I have a luger from IR 139 and look forward to learning more.

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2015 by dksck

[Glenn J]

On ‎17‎/‎11‎/‎2015‎ ‎06‎:‎49‎:‎44, Tony said:

Does anyone know the position of field hospital 7, XIX AK in Sept./Oct. 1915?

Tony,

from 31 August at St. Loup Terrier. On 10 October established as the Kriegslazarett St. Loup Terrier.

Source:

Sanitätsbericht über das Deutsche Heer I'm Weltkriege 1914/18, II. Band.

[Tony]

Thanks very much Glenn.

 

I wonder if St. Loup Terrier is one of those towns/villages in France that doesn’t have a unique name. The only place I could find was quite a long way from Loos. The soldier died in Feldlazarett 7 XIX AK and is buried in Lambersart, Lille. However, I have no idea where he was originally buried or when the cemetery in Lambersart started being used for German burials. 

 

Tony

[The Prussian]

Here I have the british battle order and two british maps of the battle of Loos

[Glenn J]

1 hour ago, Tony said:

wonder if St. Loup Terrier is one of those towns/villages in France that doesn’t have a unique name. The only place I could find was quite a long way from Loos.

Tony,

apologies; I was looking at 1914! I will see if the Sanitätsbericht can help with 1915.

Regards

Glenn

[Tony]

Thanks Andy. I came across a similar map the other day and believe they were somewhere between the 1st and 7th Brit Divisions, looking at the map you posted and assuming the info I found online about the 139th being at Hulluch is correct, they were perhaps more opposite the left of 1st Div. rather than the right of 7th Div.

A pity all German war diaries aren't available.

I'll keep my fingers crossed Glenn or as it's a German book perhaps I should try pressing my thumbs

Tony

[The Prussian]

"A pity all German war diaries aren't available. "

Yes, that´s sad. Neither the triple-volume "Sachsen in großer Zeit" nor the Reichsarchiv #9 do  mention the 24.Inf.Div. in the period of that battle.

That´s why I assume, the 139 was NOT engaged in the battles around Loos. Please have a look at at map from sep,25.

We see Inf.Rgt.179. 139 was north of them outside the map. Probably they had enemy-contact, but not in a major battle. (I don´t know exactly, where they were in october)

Here I have another map. It shows the situation at the beginning of the battle

Edited November 29, 2015 by The Prussian

[The Prussian]

The book "Der Weltkampf um Ehre und Recht" writes, that the 21. and 24.Inf.Div. tried to come to the village of Loos by passing the road Vermelles - Hulluch and country-lane Haisnes - Loos. That entry was from sept., 26.

As british enemies were mentioned the 3rd cavalry-division and 7th infantry-division.

[Tony]

I think they (or at least an element of IR 139) were mentioned as being put into action with a Bavarian unit in Vol. 9 but not has a whole unit which is why I'm also thinking the bulk of 139 IR stayed a few km north at Lille. I'll have to dig out Vol. 9 again and go through it. As well as finding out which allied units were opposite Lille.

On another note and nothing the do with IR 139, do you know this site http://tsamo.germandocsinrussia.org/de/nodes/2-deutsche-beuteakten-zum-ersten-weltkrieg-im-zentralarchiv-des-verteidigungsministeriums-der-russischen-foderation-bestand-500-findbuch-12519

[The Prussian]

Yes I know. It´s wonderful collection! But mostly eastern front...

[Tony]

2 minutes ago, The Prussian said:

The book "Der Weltkampf um Ehre und Recht" writes, that the 21. and 24.Inf.Div. tried to come to the village of Loos by passing the road Vermelles - Hulluch and country-lane Haisnes - Loos. That entry was from sept., 26.

As british enemies were mentioned the 3rd cavalry-division and 7th infantry-division.

Aha, that's good to hear and brings me a step closer. Is the book you mention just one book or part of a set? It's another to keep an eye out for.

[The Prussian]

It´s a ten-volume set.

Here the books and the index (in german...)

Der Weltkampf um Ehre und Recht.docx

[Tony]

Andy mate, thanks for finding the info in Der Weltkampf um Ehre und Recht.

 

After coming across an OS map http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A4191/-/collection which I’ve marked by showing British and German positions and then checking it against a map on Paul Reed’s site http://battlefields1418.50megs.com/loos_maps.htm showing the British positions, it looks like the 2/Gordon Highlanders and 8/Royal Berkshire Regt. were opposite the rough position of IR 139 although by the day they arrived in the area, their position may have been near the 2nd ring I've marked???

Unfortunately there’s no mention of the Saxons in 8/Royal Berks. Regt. diary or in the diary of their relief (1/Gloucesters at 11.10pm on 28/9/15). The 2/Gordon’s diary isn’t online.

 

The German units opposite the Gordon’s and Berkshire regiment came under heavy artillery and SAA which must have caused many casualties as an expected counter attack never came.

 

I still need to check the diaries for the units either side of the Gordon's and Berkshire Regt.

 

Tony