Silesian Eagle 2 class

[bryansk1959]

Your opinion please for this Silesian Eagle 2 class.Thanks.Alex

 

Edited March 12, 2016 by bryansk1959

[dedehansen]

Hi Alex,

I don´t like this Silesian Eagle

Kind regards
Andreas

[bryansk1959]

Hi Andreas,thank you for opinion.Best regards.Alex

[bolewts58]

On 3/12/2016 at 23:43, dedehansen said:

Hi Alex,

I don´t like this Silesian Eagle

Kind regards
Andreas

I believe it sold for 56 Euros on eBay. Why don't you like it? I think it's ok. In fact, I think it's typical of early ones made with wire prongs instead of rivets. The brown finish is a known type referred to as "Brauniert" in German. This type is shown in Konstantin's book on the Silesian Eagle.

Edited March 17, 2016 by bolewts58

[dedehansen]

Hi bolewts58,

sorry that´s my opinion, I´ve had a lot of Schlesische Adler 1. and 2. class in my hands

but never such one.

If we are talking from early contemporary awarded pieces, we are talking about these.

awarded to a wife

awarded to Fahrer Hans Naumann

awarded to Schütze Johannes Gebel

Kind regards

Andreas 

[bolewts58]

So have I. I've been collecting them since the late 1960s. I will however look for the example in question in Konstantin's book to verify what I am saying.

[Eric Stahlhut]

yeah, that looks like a bad one to me. the finish is not bruniert, it's a glossy laquer type prevalent among copies

 

[bolewts58]

I still disagree with both of you. Here is the same SA in 1st class from Konstantin Nikolaev's book on the Silesian Eagle. It has the same feather configuration, rivet holes, pins, cross and crescent, "FÜR SCHLESIEN" cartouche and reverse striation as the 2nd class in question. I'll revise my remarks and say that it isn't "Brauniert", but oxydized tombak or brass (hard to tell in the photo). Part of the Russian inscription on this page states that the eagle was made of oxidized metal.

I owned a similar 1st class 40 years ago in blackened brass; long before anyone was faking these. There is no doubt that it's a period piece.

Konstantin is recognized as one of the world's leading experts on all things Freikorps, particularly the Silesian Eagle and Baltic Cross. If he accepts this type as genuine, it is genuine.

 

 

Edited March 20, 2016 by bolewts58

[Eric Stahlhut]

tim, not sure if you are aware that the word,"bruniert" means bluing in german. 

the eagle that alex is asking about could be real, but please be aware that fakes done in this style do exist.

also, last year you classified a first class of this style as authentic, but you stated that the silvered finish had worn off. up above you said they were also of blackened brass. did this particular style exist with all of these finishes? i'm somewhat sceptical

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=815678

[bolewts58]

We're talking about probably 2 to perhaps 4 different finishes: oxydized metal (brass or tombak), blackened metal and perhaps bluing and silvered. It's not uncommon for several different finishes to exist on one maker's pieces. Steinhauer & Luck had 2 different finishes for its metal SA listed in its 1939 catalogue. The large number of Meybauer variations (more than a dozen) on the Silesian Eagle is a testament to what could be commerically available from one maker.

If you look at this group to Gren. Paul Rohde, that I posted last year, the 1st class pictured is of a similar type, but has a silvered finish (mostly worn off on the obverse, but present on the reverve). The reverse is partially hollow. But, other than that, it's very similar. I believe it's likely from the same maker, but from a die that had a male reverse leaving the partial hollow.

http://gmic.co.uk/topic/8598-schlesischer-adler-silesian-eagles/?do=findComment&comment=621502

Here is a close-up of the 1st class.

 

Actually, Bruniert means "bronzed" or "burnished". Bluing is " gebläut".

By the way, my name is Brian, not Tim.

I've been collecting Freikorps since 1969, back when I think only Verkuilen Ager and I were pretty much the only collectors of the stuff. So, I'm not a newbie. But, I'm not infallible, which is why if necessary I provide empirical evidence (which I have done) to back up my opinions, All you and Dedehansen have done (so far) is express unsubstantiated opinions. I'm not disputing your knowledge and expertise, which is well-known. But, here opinion alone, when expressed by 3 knowledgeable people isn't enough. I have provided expert proof from someone who is universally recognized by long-standing Freikorps collectors as the authority on the Silesian Eagle. Konstantin is active on several forums: several Russian forums, WAF and in particular the German forum Feldgrau where he is known by the handle, Tom63. He is recognized as the go-to guy by hard-core Freikorps collectors on any Freikorps pieces under discussion. So, my reference above is pretty rock solid.

If you can counter it with the equivalent, I will accept your opinion. Otherwise, I think at least in this issue, my opinion holds the advantage.

Edited March 20, 2016 by bolewts58

[dedehansen]

Hi Brian, I was asked for my opinion and so I did.
I didn´t say that it is a fake.

Regards
Andreas

[bolewts58]

12 minutes ago, dedehansen said:

Hi Brian, I was asked for my opinion and so I did.
I didn´t say that it is a fake.

Regards
Andreas

Sorry. I misunderstood your post that you didn't like it to mean you thought it was fake. Perhaps you meant that you didn't think it was an early issue one. I think it is. So, on that we disagree. Eric however said flatly it's fake and he's of course entitled to his opinion.

[Eric Stahlhut]

hi brian, sorry for the misnomer

perhaps the root of the disagreement lies with the quality of the pictures. perhaps alex could provide further pics.

nobody is questioning konstantin's expertise here, and everyone is aware of his efforts in the field of phaleristics. it's a real shame that his works aren't published in english editions, but he has his reasons.

i don't think anyone is questioning yours, either, and we are well aware of your pedigree-you have made that very clear upon numerous occaision

as i said before, based on the images provided, i do not like the finish on this one. perhaps if viewed in a different light it would look better to me.

 

 

 

[Eric Stahlhut]

also, i agree that the wire prong ones were early, however just because you find one made this way doesn't mean it's an original piece

 

[Eric Stahlhut]

here's a bruniert example albeit from a different maker, it's blued

 

 

Edited March 20, 2016 by Eric Stahlhut
*blued

[bolewts58]

Eric

We;re just having a friendly discussion and everyone's opinion is valid.

I find the translation of the term "bruniert" to mean bluing odd as the word literally means what I said in German - bronzed or burnished as it's root is 'brennen' meaning to burn.

I always thought the finish you're showing was referred to as "lackiert". The finish on early Baltic Crosses is a smoky blue-black like gun bluing and is always referred to as "lackiert" in my experience.

[Eric Stahlhut]

i looked up the technical translation and i guess the term is a broad one that can be used for several shades, colors and types of finish--and could depend on the type of metal as well

http://en.dictindustry.com/german-english/br%C3%BCniert

i always thought bruniert meant burnished bronze/brown as well, but recently someone with lots of antique firearm experience told me that definitions and terminology changed over the years, so i looked up the definition and sure enough it was, "blued"