Clamshell Maker?

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

the previous owner did some black marker touchups that I must remove, but does anyone know who made theis clamshell, double stamped 800

 

Thanks

Chris

[Eric Stahlhut]

hi, chris

 is yours magnetic?

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by Eric Stahlhut
magnetic

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

 

The cross is a non magnetic one piece it seems, I cant say if the shell itself is 800 silver.

 

[kasle]

Otto Schickle

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

 

thanks, that is what I suspected, I think it fits with the one piece 800 silver pinback I had a year ago.

 

Best

Chris

[Eric Stahlhut]

i was initially going to say, "otto schickle" as well, but the 9 gave me pause, and the construction method of the clamshell is different as well. that's why i included the link to nikolai's cross. in his book he attributes this cross to an unknown maker (vol2, chapter 62.1.3., pages 173-175)

in his chapter 62 (pages 162-190) he shows many crosses with all sorts of attachment methods that all share the same core characteristics. one maker that seems to be associated with this core style is, "emil finke, berlin"

but then, in order to confuse things even more, some refer to this type of cross as a "schickle-mayer" cross

Edited June 23, 2016 by Eric Stahlhut
elaboration

[Chris Boonzaier]

Damn.... a Schickle-Finke-Mayer Hybrid.....

Who woulds thought it????? :-)

It is a nice piece. A number of years ago I told myself I would only collect pinbacks as a sideline and not keep any screw backs... but this one is kinda cute....

[kasle]

Otto Schickle used two core types and two clamshell types. The other core and other clamshell is - as far as I know - without any doubt associated with Schickle. I already saw these two cores and clamshells in all four possible combinations, which leads me to think that this particular combination is nobody else than Schickle.

Mayer used completely different style of frame, very distinctive, with straight arms, either on Imperials or on 1939ers. Not even mentioning that this is the first time I see him associated with production of one-piece crosses. And Finke? Never heard of her

 

Below photo borrowed from 5tefan (ek1.dna). Schickle used this clamshell also on 1939 crosses which is another proof that thread starter is - just an Otto Schickle, Pforzheim.

 

 

[Eric Stahlhut]

1 hour ago, kasle said:

     And Finke? Never heard of her

please see the" who's who" of german jewelers, watchmakers, ordenshandler, etc

.....deutsche goldschmiede-zeitung, berlin...pages 219, 283,289, 321,338...listed ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=jIXkAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA283&ots=qWqeTDU00x&dq=emil finke berlin&pg=PA283#v=onepage&q=emil finke &f=false

also:

http://germans-medal.com/shop/zheleznyj-krest-arxiv/zheleznyj-krest-2-kl-1914-emil-finke-berlin/

 

 

 

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Edited June 23, 2016 by Eric Stahlhut

[kasle]

There are only three producers associated with production of clamshell EK1s: Deumer, Schickle - and Floch.
No Finke. Some Russian dealer´s page is not enough to change my mind. I can show you page, where KO is still offered as Koeniglisches Munzamt Abteilung Orden.

As I already said, all mentioned makers produced also 1939 EK1 clamshells. Where is 1939er Finke? And why his clamshell is on Schickle 1939 crosses?

[Eric Stahlhut]

perhaps it would be more prudent to state, "commonly known producers/retailers associated..."

as you allude in your comment about KO, new information comes to light all of the time. personally, i like to keep an open mind towards these things, hence my conversation with you. remember when all floch crosses were accepted as original?

i  ran the pertinent pages through a different translation service, and what the author states is that an unknown maker mass produced these unmarked crosses (in many forms--but often one piece, stamped or cast) for resale to retailers and other "producers", one of which is emil finke of berlin.

i showed you via the goldschmiede-zeitung that this firm did in fact exist. and i showed you a purported example of a cross marked to that maker. i'm sorry if this info doesn't fit into your views about these crosses--i don't really have a vested interest in this thread, other than to explore possibilites of new information. also, the fact that you seem to reject an image based merely on the seller's nationality is a mistake, in my opinion

the author proposes that the different retailers (schickle,floch,deumer, etc. etc. added their own style of attachment systems, which explains the many many varieties of this type of cross

the style of core on this cross has been around since the 20/30s and with many types of fasteners, so you can't base the manufacturer of the core based on the clamshell. you can guess the retailer, though! which is what you have done with chris' cross and you are most likely correct

why is there no 1939 emil finke cross? i don't know, perhaps the owners of the firm emigrated around 1932-33?

here is a very nice shooting medal from 1930 hallmarked on the obverse to e. finke, berlin:

http://www.ma-shops.de/walsch/item.php5?id=1169&PHPSESSID=f42d09u1kd6s600jak48490lj6

and finally:

 

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by Eric Stahlhut
spellink

[kasle]

" new information comes to light all of the time. personally, i like to keep an open mind towards these things, hence my conversation with you."

- Me too, but it doesn´t mean I just take everything as it comes. For beginner, every new info is a groundbreaking find, but for experienced and knowledged collector, it is just a piece of puzzle, that either fits to already existing mosaic, or not. And if not, it should come accompanied with strong arguments equal to the strength of mosaic that it attempted to change.
For me, E. Finke piece of puzzle doesn´t fit to clamshell-part of my mosaic which I consider quite completed and crosschecked even from TR point of view. If it came somewhere to the white, blank, still incomplete space, I would have probably taken it as a fact. Here I have no reason, so far.
I am open to new finds, I was many times seen helping them to life with my own research, but I need to see or hear valid arguments. Which I still didn´t, in this case.

"i showed you via the goldschmiede-zeitung that this firm did in fact exist..."

- I didn´t say this firm never existed. I wrote (first time in a form of joke, second time more seriously and clearly) that I´ve never heard about this firm in connection with EK1 clamshell. Pure existence of the company, or the fact that this company produced shooting awards (or maybe even EKs), is not a proof that it had something to do also with EK1 clamshells.

"...and i showed you a purported example of a cross marked to that maker."

Wrong. That "purported example of a cross" is
a.) EK2
b.) Not marked.
Everyone, even those who don´t understand Russian, can check the ring. It is unmarked piece, attributed to E. Finke only in dealer´s caption. Without any explanation or source. The long text under the cross is only about the condition and about Iron cross in general (since 1813 until 1939). Which is not enough for me to just take this info as a fact.

"...the fact that you seem to reject an image based merely on the seller's nationality is a mistake, in my opinion."

- Wrong. The fact is that I reject an image based merely on the seller´s profession (dealer) and his insufficient caption. I am Slav (Slovak), reading and speaking Russian fluently, living in a territory with strong Ruthenian, Ukrainian and Russian minority, many of them are my friends, so - without further explanation - I reserve the right not to be accused from such BS.

"why is there no 1939 emil finke cross? i don't know, perhaps the owners of the firm emigrated around 1932-33?"

- Either you believe the Russian dealer who states that EK2 he offers as Finke was produced in 30s - 40s, or you can believe Finke emigrated in 1932. But to believe in both things together doesn´t make a sense.

"i  ran the pertinent pages through a different translation service, and what the author states is that an unknown maker mass produced these unmarked crosses (in many forms--but often one piece, stamped or cast) for resale to retailers and other "producers", one of which is emil finke of berlin."

- Contrary to you, I don´t need translation services to read Russian. But we already went through this in the discussion about K.A.G. maker when you refused to show particular page. In that case you weren´t even able to interprete what is written there...
Why you wave with that Nicolai´s book when you don´t want to present extracts from it? Your answer that you want to respect copyright is just an excuse, but not the explanation. Copyright has no problem with conditions of "fair use", which allows you to presents extracts of the book for research, discussion, review of presentation purposes (together with giving credits to the book, page, author and publisher).
If you really like to keep an open mind towards new information as you stated, then you should have no problem to allow this right also to others and show the particular extracts of that book. Only then I am open to discuss what is really written there.

"and finally..."

- The cross shown in your last link is screwback, but not the clamshell. I am saying it, not the first time, Chris was asking about producer of this clamshell. Correct me if i am wrong but it is you who claim (or interprete) that this type of the cross (core, frame, one-piece construction) was sold by many retailers with different hardware. So, logically, if we want to pinpoint one of them with clamshell hardware, we should focus on clamshell hardware and not show EK2s with ring "hardware" or EK1s with big washer and small screw. It does not matter they have identical core, frame and one-piece construction because these features are irrelevant in the case of cross with identical construction retailed by many "producers" with different hardware. Is it clear now?