Double Dragon

[Alex K]

Hi all, a little bit of help and advice if possible, I have spent my entire collecting interest in mainly European ODM's but my interest has recently migrated to Oriental/Far East of which I admit know very little but find very interesting, Imperial Japanese/Korean and Manchukuo, I think I've got my head around, however Imperial Chinese has me stumped, so my quest assistance. To start with a simple (To some maybe) question, Order of the Double Dragon, type 2, 3rd class, grades 1, 2, 3, how do you tell the difference?, attached is a composite image (with Credits), they all look identical to me, is it size?, or gilt/silver variations, unfortunately as composite images I don't know the scales, any help appreciated.

 

regards

 

Alex K

[paul wood]

Gavin Goh's book on the Order of the Double Dragon, give full information on the inscriptions and how to tell the various grades. Gavin is a member of this forum and I expect he would be able to source you a copy.

Paul

[Alex K]

Hi Paul, thanks, appreciate the reply.

 

regards

 

Alex

[drclaw]

Thanks for the plug Paul!

Hi Alex, I still have a few copies of the book left (down to the last 20 actually). If you are interested, send me a PM. The cost is USD 25 + 12 postage.

To answer your question on the different grades of the 3rd class, look at the ring surrounding the blue centre stone. For the 1st grade, five-petalled flowers. 2nd grade, T-shaped pattern. 3rd grade, M-shaped pattern.

Gavin

[Alex K]

Hi Gavin sorry for the delay in responding, the differences are obvious now when you know where to look!, thanks

 

Alex K

 

(pm sent)

[Alex K]

Hi all, bought Gavin's book and a very nice and informative tome it is, lots of interesting information. With regards to the elusive type 2 Baoxing 1st grade 1st class, I came across this line drawing of the whole range (image credit shown) based on this line drawing and information in Gavin's book which seems to match quite closely the line drawing, I decided to do an "Artists impression", attached is my effort, comments, good or bad as to accuracy welcomed.

 

nb The dragons are based on the image of the 1st type first grade also from the same site

 

regards

 

Alex K

[drclaw]

Glad to hear the book arrived safely!

I really like your artists impression of the Second Type First Class First Grade. I'm not aware of any specimens but that's not to say one might not be lurking in a dusty cabinet in a palace museum somewhere.

Regarding the First Type First Class Third Grade image above, it's a Rothe reproduction made in the 1960s. They occasionally crop up at auction. A certain auction house rather disingenuously labels them as "extremely rare of Austrian manufacture" or something along that line.

[Alex K]

Hi Gavin thanks for the vote of confidence, didn't realise they 3rd class was a repro? what about the type 1 1st grade, 1st class?

 

Alex

[drclaw]

The First Class First Grade appears to be the same specimen that was sold in the 2008 Tammann collection auction.

[Alex K]

Thanks

 

regards

[WolfgangAmadeus]

Hi Gavin, 

First off, loved your book. Found it very helpful in my research of the Type I badges. How can you tell this is a Rothe reproduction? 

On 18/02/2017 at 01:00, drclaw said:

 

Regarding the First Type First Class Third Grade image above, it's a Rothe reproduction made in the 1960s. They occasionally crop up at auction. A certain auction house rather disingenuously labels them as "extremely rare of Austrian manufacture" or something along that line.

 

 

[drclaw]

Thanks for the nice comment! All the copies have now been sold thanks to JCwater.

Regarding the Rothe reproductions, these typically have the centre stone enamelled / painted on as opposed to having an actual stone.

I don't believe they were marked with the company's name, certainly none of the examples that I know of have been marked.

[paul wood]

Gavin is correct about the enamelled centre. I have never encountered a marked Rothe specimen. They are nice for those who can never afford the real thing.

Paul

[WolfgangAmadeus]

Ah excellent to know! Thank you Gavin and Paul.  The decoration on this omsa page (http://www.omsa.org/view-image/?imageid=4893&catid=590) threw me a bit, as the stone looks enamelled. 

Is there any chance I could email you a picture of the medallion I'm working on Gavin? I am leaning towards reproduction but would appreciate your thoughts. 

Please let me know! 

[drclaw]

I agree the OMSA picture is potentially confusing. If I was just going by the picture my initial thoughts would have been reproduction because of what appears to be an enamelled coral stone. The provenance of it being from the Harry Mohler collection would have made me reconsider given Mohler was an expert in Chinese medals. But on balance I would still think reproduction.

This underlines the importance of provenance and the knowledge of a highly experienced expert like Paul from an auction house like Morton and Eden. I know Paul has personally handled and inspected scores of Double Dragons over decades. You simply can't put a value on that experience. It gives you the confidence to buy.

Others include Dix Noonan Webb, Spink and Hermann Historica, Kuenker. Recently I was introduced to some French auction houses and was impressed by their knowledge and professionalism, particularly as they were advised by Jean-Christophe Palthey. A recent auction had a couple of First Type originals as well as reproductions, all carefully identified as such.

Happy to have a look at the picture. Just email it through.

 

 

 

[1812 Overture]

On 18/02/2017 at 20:06, Alex K said:

Hi Gavin thanks for the vote of confidence, didn't realise they 3rd class was a repro? what about the type 1 1st grade, 1st class?

 

Alex

 Chinese Empire 3rd class-1。大清御赐三等第一双龙宝星。