Interesting serbian bar from the period of Obrenovic dinasty

[Veljko]

Here is an interested bar, unfortunatelly found without orders. Obviousely it belonged to highest ranked officer, i am trying to reconstruct it for a while, but i am not sure of combination of orders and medals. We can try to do it together. For those medals and orders which are attached on the bar on this picture i am pretty much sure that itbis correct.

The order of orders and medals which i guess its correct, from left to right:

1) white eagle order 4or 5 class with monogram- obrenovic period

2) unkown - but i guess takovo cross order with swords 4th class

3)takovo cross 5th class

4) unknown- but i guess golden bravery medal from 1877

5) unkown - 

6) unkown - possibly montenegro silver medal for bravery or medal of proclamation of kingdom 1882 ( less probably)

7) umkown - possibly montenegro medal for courage 1862

8) medal on entering constitution in force 1894

9) military virtues 

10) medal for turkish wars 1876-78

11) medal for serbian bulgarian war 1885

 

[Veljko]

And with montenegrin medals

What is the order/medal on position 5 from left? Are the positions 6 and 7 from left for montenegrin medals as i put on photos? If not, what should go on positions 6 and 7? 

[paja]

Greetings,
Very impressive medal bar, I think I've seen it before online. 
You probably nailed most of the decorations, here's my opinion:
1) White Eagle V not IV
2) Most likely Takovo IV or V with swords, but I wouldn't completely exclude Legion of Honor or some other foreign decoration
3) Perhaps Takovo IV, if so then:
4) Takovo V and
5) Golden Bravery Medal from 1877
6) Montenegrin Silver Bravery Medal
7) Silver Bravery Medal (1876, 1877-78 or 1885-86?)
8) Petar I Coronation Medal? 
The rest is clear...

Edited February 15, 2017 by paja

[Veljko]

21 minutes ago, paja said:

Greetings,
Very impressive medal bar, I think I've seen it before online. 
You probably nailed most of the decorations, here's my opinion:
1) White Eagle V not IV
2) Most likely Takovo IV with swords, but I wouldn't completely exclude Legion of Honor or some other foreign decoration. 
3) Perhaps Takovo IV, if so then:
4) Takovo V and
5) Golden Bravery Medal from 1877
6) Montenegrin Silver Bravery Medal
7) Silver Bravery Medal (1876, 1877-78 or 1885-86?)
8) Petar I Coronation Medal? 
The rest is clear...

Thx Pajo,

1) and 2) i agree with you, postiton 3 and 4 with takovo crosses 4 and 5 are a bit too much , together with takovo cross with swords would result in 3 takovo crosses on bar. Not many seen like that, maybe on positions 3), 4), 5) are: takovo cross 5th, golden bravery 77, red cross of prinicality serbia ( same ribbon as prevoous two). On the position 7) after montenegrin bravery medal can not go serbian silver bravery 76,77-78, based on rules, this one should go after golden bravery 77, but in any case before foreign - montenegrin bravery medal. Regarding position 8) rule and order was to put it immediately after the orders so not likely from my opininon, but i was also thinking about that option too

[paja]

Don't mention it, thank you for sharing such a beautiful  medal bar with us!

Now that you have mentioned it, we should check what do regulations say about having both IV and V Takovo on a medal bar.

If I remember well Red Cross Order was supposed to be worn on the last place.

I am aware of the fact that foreign decorations were to be worn after domestic ones but when we look at the photos of officers from that era we can see some of them didn't comply with that regulation. Also Montenegrin Commemorative Medal from 1862 "For Heroism" according to several authors had different ribbon...

Petar I Coronation Medal was not to to be put immediately after the orders, Bravery medals were also in front of it.

1893 Medal was to be awarded to the King, members of the Government and National Assembly. The only officer among them was Dragutin Franasović, Minister of War. I found a photo of him from 1896 and that's definitely not his medal bar. Constitution of 1888 doesn't give active nor passive right to vote to members of the military, so they couldn't have been members of the National Assembly. Perhaps the King awarded some of these medals to other individuals but all of the sources I have say the same thing, King, Government, National Assembly.

Edited February 15, 2017 by paja

[Veljko]

Since you mentioned general Dragutin Franasovic, see this one and btw do you have his original photo?

And this

regarding barbi absolutely agree with you about regulations you mentioned and how they didnt stick to them, but when you put as you mentioned silver serbian bravery - kolajna then you dont have line below, hope you understand what i mean, which is also showing sime kind of correctness of order of medals and orders .

Could you please post a photo and bar od General D Franasovic?

Look at this option

 

[Veljko]

Regarding medal of king peter, also what tells me that maybe this is not option is the period of the active service of that officer, it would mean that he was active for  over 40 yrs of service, maybe too long period 

[paja]

Amazing set of documents, especially second one signed by Blaznavac!

I understand what you mean, about medals being aligned, but we can see that there's the same issue with Montenegrin medal. Silver Bravery Medal is always problematic because of its small dimensions, but there's also that type with suspension ring. 

I might be wrong but I still think Medal for Heroism isn't the medal on 7th place therefore it might not be the case of over 40 years of service. I don't know what were regulations like back then, but for example one of my ancestors was retired as colonel in 1899 at the age of 61 after 32 years of service in the Serbian army plus 7 more before that in Austria (he was born in what is now Northern Serbia). Anyway there are examples of officers serving over 40 years, how often did that happen in practice I can't say.

There's a medal bar with those two Montenegrin medals in Car/Muhić book. I think that's the only Serbian bar with Medal for Heroism I've seen so far. The medal in question is suspended from the same type of ribbon, red, blue and white one, but as I said before all of the sources that are available to me say it had a different ribbon...

Edited February 15, 2017 by paja

[Veljko]

Yes regarding medal for geroism you could be right, and also might have logic to put instead montenegrin heroism  (kolajna) silver bravery 85-86, it will look aligned and it has suspended ring. Idea to put montenegrin medal for heroism i took actually from the bar presented in Muhic/Car book, which you mentioned. But my biggest dilema are positions 3),4),5). Look at the hight of the loops (zakacaljjki) and allignment in this option. It doesnt look well.

That was the reason why i am sure that on position 3) is takovo5th, position 4) golden bravery and position 5) despite ita not according to rules (should be on the end of the bar) i choose red cross

[paja]

I forgot to mention this yesterday, but once I saw Red Cross on the bar I thought that's it, you are probably right about that one. We can often see officers wearing Red Cross Order in front of all medals, and not only officers, even Milan and Aleksandar Obrenović sometimes did the same.

Anyway, really amazing medal bar, something we don't see very often. Too bad that there are not that many photos of officers from that era available online, otherwise we might be able to determine to whom it belonged.

Edited February 16, 2017 by paja

[Veljko]

Thx for help, i will exchange montenegrin heroism with silver bravery medal 85, when you have time pls post photo of general Franasovic, would be nice to see his bar and orders which he get.

Best

[paja]

My apologies, I completely forgot to post that photo of general Franasović. It's unusual to see he wore such a "short" medal bar, he must have had more decorations. Anyway photo was made in 1896, I think his military carrier ended the following year when he was retired for the second time. It's interesting to mention that he was the Chancellor of the Royal Orders from 1903 until 1905.

[Veljko]

Thx!

[paja]

Don't mention it, glad to help when I can.
Best regards

[Veljko]

Hi Paja i am chasing to find General Franasovic longer bar than this one on a picture. But i can't, in the meantime did you find some new photo of Gen Franasovic with longer bar?

cheers

 

[new world]

Amazing bar! Did you manage to get it compete?

[Veljko]

D

5 hours ago, new world said:

Amazing bar! Did you manage to get it compete?

Hi i actually made some changes and i think that this is 99% how it looked originally. Unfortunatelly I'm still missing Takovo cross with swords 4th class

 

[paja]

Apologies for not replying sooner. Unfortunately I wasn't able to find Franasović's photo with longer medal bar, if I stumble upon it I will let you know.
Good luck finding Takovo IV with swords, that medal bar is really amazing!

[new world]

On 12/22/2017 at 12:17, Veljko said:

D

Hi i actually made some changes and i think that this is 99% how it looked originally. Unfortunatelly I'm still missing Takovo cross with swords 4th class

 

Those ribbons for Takovo and medical cross - shouldn't they be different? 

[Veljko]

3 hours ago, new world said:

Those ribbons for Takovo and medical cross - shouldn't they be different? 

Hi new world, no these are  correct ribbons, for example for ref. pls check excerpt from Muhic-Car book, as their photos are in color.

Maybe you were confused since Red Cross order  from kingdom period has different ribbon - white one  and  Takovo Cross with swords, has different ribbon-the red one. 

But ordinary Takovo Cross (without swords) and Red Cross order (from principality) have the same ribbon, as shown on the bar and photos from the book.

[paja]

On 12/17/2017 at 08:18, Veljko said:

Hi Paja i am chasing to find General Franasovic longer bar than this one on a picture. But i can't, in the meantime did you find some new photo of Gen Franasovic with longer bar?

cheers

Finally, a photo with the longer medal bar! 
He was back in the military between 1895 and 1897 and based on his uniform I'd say the photo was made post-1896.
Medal bar consists of the following decorations.
1. Possibly White Eagle V covered with the sash
2. Takovo V with Swords
3. Order of Leopold III (Austria)
4. Legion of Honor IV (France)
5. Order for Bravery IV, 2nd grade (Bulgaria) 
6. Red Cross Order (type 2)
7. ????
8. Commemorative Medal of the Serbian-Ottoman Wars 1876-78

Apart form that I believe he's wearing:
Takovo I
White Eagle II
Order of Christ (Portugal)
Order of Saints Maurice and Lazarus I (Italy) 
Possibly Order of the Iron Crown I (Austria)
And one more partially visible star

Edited March 6, 2018 by paja

[Igor Ostapenko]

On 22 בדצמבר 2017 at 19:17, Veljko said:

D

Hi i actually made some changes and i think that this is 99% how it looked originally. Unfortunatelly I'm still missing Takovo cross with swords 4th class

 

Great !!!

But try another type of Montenegrin bravery medal 

[Veljko]

22 hours ago, paja said:

Finally, a photo with the longer medal bar! 
He was back in the military between 1895 and 1897 and based on his uniform I'd say the photo was made post-1896.
Medal bar consists of the following decorations.
1. Possibly White Eagle V covered with the sash
2. Takovo V with Swords
3. Order of Leopold III (Austria)
4. Legion of Honor IV (France)
5. Order for Bravery IV, 2nd grade (Bulgaria) 
6. Red Cross Order (type 2)
7. ????
8. Commemorative Medal of the Serbian-Ottoman Wars 1876-78

Apart form that I believe he's wearing:
Takovo I
White Eagle II
Order of Christ (Portugal)
Order of Saints Maurice and Lazarus I (Italy) 
Possibly Order of the Iron Crown I (Austria)
And one more partially visible star

Hi Paja,

thx a lot for great photo of General Franasovic, i agree with you, this photo is from the period after 1897, on position 7 i think that he is wearing commemorative medal of 40 yrs of St. Andrews assembly.But if its medal od 40 yrs of St Andrews assembly, i think that he would wear also Order of Milos the Great. I think that he was awarded with Order of Milos the Great 2nd class,  but i dont know when he was awarded.

Great finding,

best,

Veljko

Edited March 7, 2018 by Veljko

[Veljko]

7 hours ago, Igor Ostapenko said:

Great !!!

But try another type of Montenegrin bravery medal 

Hi Igor,

i tried allready, i know this bar frim the Belgrade Museum, but this one is the only one with such combination awarded to Serbian officer. Somehow i think that combination of Montenegrin silver bravery medal and Serbian silver bravery medal 1885-1886 would be more common. Thx for the advice!

[Veljko]

Hi Igor,

But however here is version with two montenegrin bravery medals. This is also absolutely correct and possible option for this bar, Serbian silver bravery from serbian turkish and Serbian Bulgarian war and Montenegrin medal for courage 1862 (silver other you mentioned) have the same ribbon red-blue-white. But also i talked to some of our fellow collectors and thaey have the opinion that montenegrin medal for courage 1862 is going with red-white montenegrin ribbon and was never awarded with red-blue-white ribbon. The regular montenegrin silver medal was awarded with red -blue-white one until begginig of 20th century when this was changed and this one startes to be awarded with white-red montenegrin ribbon.

cheers