Horse donation plaque

[Hauptmann]

Hi all,

Here's a piece I picked up in a pawn shop a long time ago in a state far far away... ie: Florida. I'd not seen this one before so when I saw it in a pawn shop for $60 I was a bit apprehensive but I decided to take a chance on it. I think I got it down to $50 and felt happy with it. If nothing else it's one heavy hunk of metal!

When I got home I checked in Jack Angolia's For Fuhrer and Fatherland and sure enough there it was. Only one problem... it stated that they were black and this one is gold!

They were given to individuals or organizations that donated horses or equipment used in the care of horses... trailers, bridles, saddles, and the like.

On a later trip across country we stopped in to see Jack and I showed this to him. He felt it was totally authentic and saw no problems with it but he had no explanation for the gold other than that it was a possible variation. But I've always wondered if, like other German awards, they had a black, silver and gold level for this award.

And what looks like dirt on this award is actually a beautiful toning... I couldn't get it to show with my camera but parts of it have nearly a rainbow toning which with coins at least is considered very desirable. I for one love it!

Needless to say this is the only gold one I've ever seen... so if anyone out there has a silver... bring it on!

[Raz]

I've also never seen or heard of other grades for this non portable award either.

I've got the normal black version. Makes for a good paper weight.

There was also a miniature stickpin for this award as well.

Edited April 13, 2006 by Raz

[Hauptmann]

I've also never seen or heard of other grades for this non portable award either.

I've got the normal black version. Makes for a good paper weight.

There was also a miniature stickpin for this award as well.

Hi Raz,

Nor had I. That's one reason I took it up for Jack to check it out at the time... was about six months after I'd gotten it if memory serves. He gave it a clean bill of health so I felt pretty good... especially if it is the first of another grade to show up or at the very least a variation. But I think I'd lean more towards the grades theory as with the rzm checking everything and keeping very close tabs on industry re: awards and such... I don't think they would have allowed this blatant a variation to get out. Unless perhaps it was for a special presentation.

As for it making a good paper weight... you're definitely right there! And a big pile of paper it could hold down too... in a wind store. A heavy little sucker indeed!

And yours is in fantastic shape! Congrats on a very, very nice piece.

Thanks,

Dan

[Guest WAR LORD]

There are a couple of things about this plaque that might need investigating. It was only given in blackened iron. The clarity of the piece is a little fuzzy.

[Hauptmann]

There are a couple of things about this plaque that might need investigating. It was only given in blackened iron. The clarity of the piece is a little fuzzy.

Hi War Lord,

Many apologies on the pic. As I've explained in many of my posts I'm struggling with our digital camera and saving towards getting a small scanner so I can do a better job with all this.

I'd originally joined and then didn't post anything for fear the pics would not be good enough with the DC but at a point the other night I just couldn't stand not posting anymore and I had to jump in.

But I'll be happy to answer any questions I can on the piece. As I said I found it in a pawn shop... the owner had no idea on any history, etc. Just a piece he'd taken in. It was an accidental find... came along with a German helmet which was quite original and in fact that was also confirmed by Jack who became the next owner after me.

The only "authority" I've taken it to or shown it to is Jack Angolia and as he #1 wrote the book and #2 owned several we compared it to, and #3 he had no problem with it at that time I just assumed it was okay. He did not seem bothered by the fact that it was gold and again seemed to think it was simply a variation.

It's very heavy as were his and just seems a nice overall piece. I figure I've got about $50 in it so don't think I did too bad... and I don't even have the slightest idea what they sell for, now or then.

There is and even at the time was absolutely no smell of paint and just no indication that it's anything but what it should be. It has a beautiful rainbow colored toning on it that IMHOP adds to it's beauty.

Wish I knew more but that's the extent of what I know. But if you know of something more specific to check for I'll be happy to oblige as I'm just as anxious as anyone to know for 100% sure. I can't imagine that long ago someone making one up that's good enough to fool the experts... I've never known it to be a desireable piece (correct me if I'm wrong) so doubt they'd sell many or make enough to make it a worthwhile project to go to the lengths I'm sure they would have had to go to to do it. Knights Crosses yes, this... I just don't see it happening.

And I definitely don't want to like try taking solvents to it to see if the gold will come off or anything as I don't want to damage a potentially scarce piece.

Anyhow any suggestions are most welcome and I'll do all I can to provide any other info on it I can.

Thanks,

Dan

[Guest WAR LORD]

The plaque should be blacked iron, not painted. Here is an original for comparison.

[Hauptmann]

The plaque should be blacked iron, not painted. Here is an original for comparison.

Hi War Lord,

I'll be happy to do a scan of it... as soon as I'm able to get a scanner but for now unless I can take it somewhere and do it (small town, no print places to speak of) I'm kinda stuck with the camera I have.

And again, it's just as I found it... haven't messed with it and only have what Jack told me as far as the thumbs up to be able to say one way or the other.

I really wish I could say more. I'd kinda hoped to get some additional info on it or something posting here. I mean even Jack said the black was the norm. And again cannot in my wildest dreams imagine why anyone would either fake it, which I'm sure Jack would have seen through in a heartbeat, or would paint it gold. There is and was never from the day I bought it... I checked as I do with helmets, etc... any odor of paint which of course does tend to stay for alot longer then most people realize.

It's something that I don't believe is widely collected or particular sought after by most collectors so I'm assuming not something the repop'ers would shoot for... who would buy them? And to take an original and paint it gold... why? Makes no sense to me.

Sigh. Just seems to be turning into a problematical piece. I mean, as I said, I didn't even seek it out... had a friend who was like super into horses and when I found it I figured she'd love to see it due to the horse theme. Beyond that it just sits with the rest of the stuff. No intention to sell it or anything.

I "may" be willing to try a bit of solvent on one of the out of the way edge pieces to see if anything comes off. If it does then it's paint but the question still remains, why? But if it doesn't come off then it was either made that way for whatever reason or it just remains a mystery.

No idea what else to say. Wish I knew more. Very frustrating to say the least.

But very much enjoyed seeing yours. Very nice piece indeed. I'm beginning to wish mine looked the same.

Thanks,

Dan

[Guest WAR LORD]

As to your plaque, I have to hold judgement. But would need to see more. There is no ordinance for a silver or gold. My humble opinion, if original, then enhanced. Jacks input would not change my thoughts. He and I have been talking about these things for years. Great on daggers, -----? Think he might be lurking.

[Hauptmann]

Hi War Lord,

I quite understand. I'm kind of a very very tiny small fish in a great big pond. And to me Jack is up there at the top of the big school. I deeply respect him and have looked up to him ever since my first chat with him on the phone not to mention my first visit which cemented those feelings. He and Joy were extremely kind to Kim and I and our pooches fell in love and had the time of their lives on that first visit. They put out the red carpet for us and we were just sooo impressed and will cherish those memories for the rest of our lives. To me, if he says it it's like hearing it from God. Not that he can't be wrong... we all suffer from being wrong... me more than most. But to me, anyone who has owned that size and quality collection and written that many scholarly books on this subject can't be far from wrong.

In case he's lurking, and possibly blushing by now... HI JACK!!!! We'd love to hear from you! PM and I'll send along our current info and such.

I just got it, have it and don't know what to make of it either. I don't know where you are located... I'm in Carrington North Dakota which is over on the eastern part of the state, centrally located. But if there's a way down the road that we might end up in the same neck of the woods and can plan it in advance I'll be happy to bring it along and let ya take a look at it. If you can help me figure it out that would be fantastic as for now it's just another mystery.

Thanks,

Dan

[Guest Rick Research]

"I 'may' be willing to try a bit of solvent on one of the out of the way edge pieces to see if anything comes off."

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Before getting into the Let's Ruin Things Out Of Idle Curiosity Mode

1) exact measurements?

2) how much does it weigh?

3) what metal is it actually MADE out of?

If this is some sort of zinky "war metal," then perhaps it is a wartime replacement for Essential Metals (scrap drives? fences being turned in? Pots smelted down?...)

It DOES seem an unlikely item for fakery and not one found everywhere like the railroad car eagles.

You guys need to compare the things' measurements. Obviously cast iron won't weight what lighter Yuck Metal does, but being made in the same molds, allowing for the different colling properties of the two possible types of metals, they should be close.

[Hauptmann]

It DOES seem an unlikely item for fakery and not one found everywhere like the railroad car eagles.

Hi Rick,

Dan... very sheepish ... me not no damage my precious! Me am sorry me made you have heart attack. Me hope you feeling much better now.

Just was getting a bit into the "frustrated" mode at that point and didn't know quite what else to say at that stage of the game as I've been trying to provide all the info I knew on this piece. Don't want anyone in any way whatsoever to think I'm hiding anything or trying to make this into something it's not.

And think you said it best as quoted above... just not something I'd imagine the fakers wasting their time with... who'd buy it?

But you are quite right and very correct in this Rick. Sooooo, here's the scoop:

I have taken the first steps... it does indeed seem to be iron... magnets stick with no problem at all.

It's 18.4 ounces (522 grams... or to be precise: 521.631 225 5 grams). That on a good quality Edmunds digital scale. Just ran down and unlocked the restaurant so I could do it. See... I's really tryin' folks! On Easter Sunday no less!

It measures as follows:

From the point between where the wreaths meet at the top to the bottom of the swaz circle is: 4 and 3/8ths inches.

From the point at the tip of one of the top wreath peaks to toe bottom of the swaz circle is:4 and 9/16ths inches.

From the horses ears diagonally across to the opposite side is: 4 and 11/16ths inches.

Edge to edge on the ring is 3 and 15/16ths inches.

Wing tip to wing tip on the eagle is 3 and 7/16ths inches.

Thickness... this varies all around of course but on the swaz circle the thickness measures 3/8ths inches.

This is a very difficult piece to measure as it has the "ragged" edge of the wreath leaves, etc. all around except for the swaz circle and horse. This is the best we could do. I do not have access to calipurs or any more precise measuring equipment... this was literally the best I could do.

Hope all this helps to come to a conclusion one way or the other.

Again any or all help, comments, advice are cheerfully accepted... as are platinum, gold, silver, diamonds and other assorted precious gems, stocks, bonds or even good old hard currency.

Thanks,

Dan

[Guest WAR LORD]

Dear DAN, WOULD BE NICE TO MEET, BUT UNFORTUNATLY THERE IS A SMALL AMOUNT OF WATER BETWEEN US. I will measure my piece and give a report. But back to the main point, this should not be in gold. Possibility some one has messed with it. But 100% it should be only in black. Ricks point is vallided, but these were not issued after the beginning of the war. So back to the same stand point.

[Guest Darrell]

Dear DAN, WOULD BE NICE TO MEET, BUT UNFORTUNATLY THERE IS A SMALL AMOUNT OF WATER BETWEEN US. I will measure my piece and give a report. But back to the main point, this should not be in gold. Possibility some one has messed with it. But 100% it should be only in black. Ricks point is vallided, but these were not issued after the beginning of the war. So back to the same stand point.

I'm wondering if someone "thought" it wasn't supposed to be black ... possibly tarnish

and either polished or sand blasted the crap out of it exposing the metal below? Stranger things have happened with medals before

Edited April 16, 2006 by Darrell

[Hauptmann]

Hi all,

I'm simply out of ideas. All I know is this is the way it was when I got it and I did "nothing" to it save to clean off the grime from it sitting Lord knows where for who knows how long. Just a bit of dish soap and water and a very light wipe. Did not change the color except to make it non-grimey.

"SMUT KLINK!"

So other than being de-smutified it's the same as when I found it. I'm just as dumbfounded as anyone here. In fact, when I got it all I knew was it "looked" nazi (duh! ). I seemed to have vaguely remembered something about it in Jack's FF&F so I got it... at the time $50 was not a big deal (Oh how I miss those days!) so figured it was worth the risk. If nothing else I'd have a really cool, albeit rather pricey paperweight.

Got home, looked it up and yes, it says "Only Black". So what's a guy to do?

If anyone can give me any more "non-destructive" (Don't want Rick to have another stroke! ) then I'll be happy to do anything I can to try to help solve this mystery.

I just know what I have, pictured same, have done everything but have it X-rayed and put under an electron microscope and sadly I don't have those options available. But anything that is within my power to do (short of harming it... again out of extreme deference to Rick... ) I'll gladly do.

Cause I'd love an answer more than anyone.

So any more ideas, please pass them along.

Just out of curiosity, did the measuring and weighing and such help at all?

Keeping my fingers crossed that we'll figure this out yet.

Dan

Edited April 17, 2006 by Hauptman

[Hauptmann]

I'm wondering if someone "thought" it wasn't supposed to be black ... possibly tarnish

and either polished or sand blasted the crap out of it exposing the metal below? Stranger things have happened with medals before

Hi Darrell,

You mention tarnish... and this (hard to tell in the picture) has a beautiful looking tarnish on it. Does paint tend to tarnish... in my experience it's regular metal that does. Just go into any coin shop or ask any coin collector... they "love" a beautiful tarnish and would kill to prevent someone coming along and "cleaning" it.

I just don't know what else to think or do... yes, "supposed to be black"... the world way back when was "supposed to be flat" too. Don't know if this is one of those or what. Don't know if this was special ordered for some big wig or what. Wish to high heaven I did, believe you me cause I'm just as befuddled as anyone.

Sigh.

Perhaps I should try to find a psychic to see if they can lay hands on it and get it's back history or something? Cause short of that I'm out of ideas.

And as the old saying goes... anything is possible.

Thanks,

Dan

[Guest Darrell]

Well ... I know nothing about these, but I've seen zinc medals polished to death because someone thought it must be silver under neath.

Maybe they thought this was some large Silver Award. Polish her up to look better Stranger things have happened.

Edited April 17, 2006 by Darrell

[Hauptmann]

But then, wouldn't it come out like most iron or cast iron I've seen... when you polish it it simply does not come out gold... not in my experience. Just doesn't happen. And if sandblasted it should look pitted, not nice and smooth. Only the edges where the leaves are done and such look a bit on the rough side... like original file marks, very fine, one direction... like something a craftsman would do to smooth out and finish a piece, and then finished off with this gold finish or plating or whatever it is. But no sign of black... a bit of the tarnish and perhaps some of that old "smut" but it's just soooo jagged in there... I mean you could almost saw wood with it where those leaves are.

And the surface details are the same as every other example I've seen... hands down. In my experience, castings tend to lose detail... this one is not like that. It's very detailed... the horse, the swaz, the inscription, etc.

I'm not sure if they were supposed to be like "ultra finally finished" on the edges or what.

This is just like from the Twilight Zone!

Perhaps... and again I'm just brainstorming here... like what were they like before that nice black was put over them? Perhaps, could this be some kind of an "undercoat" similar to a primer before that black coat was put on... and for whatever reason this is an example that was never "blacked"? Again I'm just throwing it out there... no idea what else to do?

And yes... I know, I know... It's Supposed To Be Black! Arrrrrgh! Still just don't know what to say... other than... I've had it for like twenty years!

Here's hoping we can figure it out at some point.

Thanks,

Dan

[Raz]

I would also have got some stats of my plaque for you Dan but I am overseas.

[Rosenberg]

I don?t think this is a special version,if it is real someone messed with the blackening.Take your time and DL the pic WARLORD upped play with the brightness and check the lettering.You will see basically identical letters with Lord?s lettering being much sharper.I think someone brushed it at least.

Even though I haven?t seen a fake offered at all I wouldn?t say there is no fake out there,just look what kind of cheap stuff like mothercrosses and Ostmedaille are getting forged.However,at this point without a counter-weight data I would say it seems original but messed with to me.

[Guest WAR LORD]

One possible explanation is that this was cleaned with an electric drill with the wire brush attachment. The residue of the brush gives a faint layer which can produce a colour change. This particular when done on iron. This would also give rise to loss of clarity in the designe. As an aside I believe copies of this have been made, in the late 70's.

[Hauptmann]

I would also have got some stats of my plaque for you Dan but I am overseas.

Hi Raz,

Many thanks! I'm sure someone will post some more info. Still waiting on that weight/measurement data to get matched up.

Thanks,

Dan

[Guest WAR LORD]

"OUR BOY IS ON LINE". Bring Jack to the discusion.

[Hauptmann]

"OUR BOY IS ON LINE". Bring Jack to the discusion.

Hi War Lord,

Nuts! Been one of those days work wise and this is the first chance (8:22 p.m. cst) I've had to get on. Figures he'd come and go while I wasn't on. Jack... sorry I missed you! PM me when you're back on... Kim and I would love to hear from you!

Also Jack, would love your imput on this piece again if you wouldn't mind. Been going crazy with this... do you happen to have the weight and measurements for this one? Anything that would move this one way or the other? Many thanks!

Again sorry I missed out.

Dan

Edited April 19, 2006 by Hauptman

[Guest Darrell]

Dan ... you are NOT supposed to leave ... you have to be here 24/7. You miss all the excitement when you leave .. even for a bathroom break.

[Hauptmann]

Hi Darrell,

Oh I know... I should be ashamed of myself!

You've no idea how I needed that laugh! Been one of those days. But hey, it's getting better since it's nearly over. Have to head in to work tonight around 10-10:30 and no idea what I'm facing but hoping it'll be an easy night and I can finish up and rush home... and yes, try and get back on here so I don't miss any more excitement than absolutely necessary.

Knowing my luck ya'll will start giving away great prizes worth hundreds and hundreds of dollars... and I'll get stuck with the white elephant by the time I get back on.

Thanks!

Dan