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PLEASE HELP !! BRITISH WW1 M.C. AWARD To U.S. ARMY MEDICAL CORPS OFFICER


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  Hello  Gentlemen,  I fear that I am in need of some assistance on this one ! { RE: 1st LIEUTENANT Albert Orville RAYMOND, MEDICAL CORPS, U. S. ARMY, WW1 era. Hometown was; Brocktown, Massachusetts, USA. Born: 1889 / Died: 1955 } 

       I've searched now for over 2 days, but no luck, other than a mention of the U.K. based 'Forces War Records' Site. They note he served as an Lieutenant, assigned to an Orthopaedic Unit, attached to the Royal Army  Medical Corps. No mention however about his being an American, and or being awarded the Military Cross ? His original M.C. Document does note his being 'attached to the 7th Battalion'. NOW, the truly sad part of all this is that I have already documented this M.C., & located the respective L.G. Reference data about a year or two ago !!! Do you think I can find it now, no !it I've looked all over for it. IIRC, the Gazette entry specified which 7th Battalion he served with, along with some related information. Only problem now is I just can't seem to perform an successful search for it !!! If anyone would PLEASE assist me in locating his particular L.G. Reference, I will truly be EXTREMELY APPRECIATIVE. 

 

            Best regards,   Dom Pastore Jr.  /  dpast32@aol.com

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A couple of posts from 20 Dec 2019 on the GWF might help you ;)

[Spoiler alert: it was the 7th Battalion, South Staffordshire Regiment]

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/39285-south-staffordshire-regt-war-diaries/page/11/

Other than that, he is rather elusive. I did find this in the LG but I suspect that you have already seen it.

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The only other thing which I found was that he graduated from Tufts on 17 June 1914 as a Doctor of Medicine.

Edited by Trooper_D
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Sorry 'Trooper D' for my slightly belated reply & my overwhelmingly HUGE THANK YOU for your very kind reply to this query !!!! I was, up until reading your reply this morning, starting to become resigned to the fact that I was in for quite a long & exhaustive slog to find what I was looking for. And, what really drove me nuts was that I distinctly recalled 'solving' this issue, but due to it not being mine at the time, I neglected to actually file the information as I would have done if it was related to one of my groups. In addition to you have so kindly provided, I also located his M.I.C. at the PRO, which in itself I thought was somewhat unusual ? [ See below ] I was, & still am under the assumption he was an American U.S. Army Doctor serving with / attached to an RAMC unit. Along with the M.I.C. I found another L.G. Entry related to his being confirmed as an Lieutenant, RAMC. I still have much, much more work to do here, but THANKS to you, I am now certain as to his assigned unit, which as you well know, will allow me to search the relevant War Diaries for any mentions. I'm fairly sure that this particular M.C. was more or less a sort of 'Service Award', as opposed to an actual Gallantry 'Immediate' Award. [ Although, we've all been surprised before, right ? ] I'll try to update this Post upon my locating any new data, and or relevant information. THANKS AGAIN 'Trooper D', your reply was extremely appreciated !! Take care,

 

               Best regards,   Dom Pastore Jr.  /  dpast32@aol.com

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Sorry 'Trooper D' for my slightly belated reply & my overwhelmingly HUGE THANK YOU for your very kind reply to this query !!!! I was, up until reading your reply this morning, starting to become resigned to the fact that I was in for quite a long & exhaustive slog to find what I was looking for. And, what really drove me nuts was that I distinctly recalled 'solving' this issue, but due to it not being mine at the time, I neglected to actually file the information as I would have done if it was related to one of my groups. In addition to you have so kindly provided, I also located his M.I.C. at the PRO, which in itself I thought was somewhat unusual ? [ See below ] I was, & still am under the assumption he was an American U.S. Army Doctor serving with / attached to an RAMC unit. Along with the M.I.C. I found another L.G. Entry related to his being confirmed as an Lieutenant, RAMC. I still have much, much more work to do here, but THANKS to you, I am now certain as to his assigned unit, which as you well know, will allow me to search the relevant War Diaries for any mentions. I'm fairly sure that this particular M.C. was more or less a sort of 'Service Award', as opposed to an actual Gallantry 'Immediate' Award. [ Although, we've all been surprised before, right ? ] I'll try to update this Post upon my locating any new data, and or relevant information. THANKS AGAIN 'Trooper D', your reply was extremely appreciated !! Take care,

 

               Best regards,   Dom Pastore Jr.  /  dpast32@aol.com

Hello Gents, The following is an relatively simple question, although I don't happen to know the answer to it. On the 'bottom right' of the above M.I.C. are 2 notations. Do they by any chance refer to an L.G. Reference ? I am STILL searching for this mans Gazette notice announcing his Military Cross award, but just can't seem to turn it up. I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that it exists, as I specifically referred to it in a Query Post I made about a year ago. I must be looking in the wrong place ? All I can think of is that perhaps it's listed undervthe  Foreign Office heading, as the recipient was an American ?? Does it appear anywhere in one of the pubs pertaining to WW1 M.C. Listings ? ANY additional input here will be very much appreciated !! THANK YOU Folks,

 

                          Best,    Dom P.

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I think you will find this short biog which I found on familysearch.org (link below) of interest as it gives more of his military service. It appears to come from something called the 'United States Deceased Physician File (AMA), 1864-1968' published by the American Medical Association, Chicago.

 

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Source: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9QP-KX83

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A further piece of evidence: an extract from his passport application made in Feb 1917 so that he could sail to the UK to serve in a military hospital (again from familysearch.org where the complete application can be found; link below).

 

2021-02-04_14-40-51.thumb.png.44e8984f11f425011929b1b58bd29c66.png

Source: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89X7-F9CT-2

Edited by Trooper_D
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Hello Gents, The following is an relatively simple question, although I don't happen to know the answer to it. On the 'bottom right' of the above M.I.C. are 2 notations. Do they by any chance refer to an L.G. Reference ? I am STILL searching for this mans Gazette notice announcing his Military Cross award, but just can't seem to turn it up. I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that it exists, as I specifically referred to it in a Query Post I made about a year ago. I must be looking in the wrong place ? All I can think of is that perhaps it's listed undervthe  Foreign Office heading, as the recipient was an American ?? Does it appear anywhere in one of the pubs pertaining to WW1 M.C. Listings ? ANY additional input here will be very much appreciated !! THANK YOU Folks,

 

                          Best,    Dom P.

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THANK YOU AGAIN Trooper D, I truly do appreciate your very kind assistance with this extremely annoying issue !! I'm sure you know how it is when you've read something not all that long ago, & now you just can't find it again !! I distinctly recall his L.G. Entry stating his award of the M.C., along with him being attached to the 7th Bn, South Staff's. As par normal, it was only about 3 or so lines, but it most definitely referred to that unit. I'm closely scrutinizing everything you've sent me, in addition to whatever data I've turned up on my own. Hopefully, between it all just maybe it may help lead me towards my ultimate 'prize', his actual L.G. Military Cross award documentation ? I have learned over the years that sometimes these searches can be quite long, drawn out projects. Years ago I was seeking the Citation for an American Soldier's M.M., which I had been advised by numerous knowledgable people that I would never find !! Well, I did eventually locate it, within n the U.K  Foreign Office Files at the PRO / Kew. And just for the record, what an extremely interesting account it proved to be !! So, although I really hate to wait for things, sometimes it simply can't be helped. 'The search shall continue' !! THANKS again for all your continued interest. 

 

                    Best,      Dom

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Hello Guys, Just for the record, if you have access to Abbott & Trampling "British Gallantry Awards", they report within their Chapter 32, page[s] 217 - 218 that indeed some early M.C.'s had been awarded for 'Distinguished & Meritorious Services', circa 1915 - 1916, & not necessarily 'under enemy fire, and or at the front'. However, it apparently became known by more than just a few Officers that this particular practice practice had been going on, & on 01 January 1917 A Directive was issued to cease this practice as far as possible, & restrict M.C. awards to the 'Fighting Services'. [ See: page 218, bottom  ] Honestly, at this point I probably would have begun to assume that Lieutenant Raymond's M.C. had been one that simply was never Gazette, as was the case with some awards. BUT, I myself have viewed his Gazette Entry, so I am certain that it exists & I just haven't found it yet. How I wish I could recall what I did with it, or where I filled it !!! I'll find the Bugger, sooner or later !! 

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 OK My Friends, Here we go, 'Listen my fellow collectors and you shall hear, a discovery of which I find quite dear' !! BE ADVISED, I have found the darn thing that's been literally driving me nuts the past 3 days !! I knew I had read it somewhere ? Well it wasn't in the Gazette as had initially suspected, nor at the PRO. I had originally found it within an obscure little publication, a booklet really which I've had in my library for years. [ RE: "British Decorations Awarded to the American Army". Compiled by the late Col. Albert Gleim in 1982, Pub. No. 9 of the Planchet Press Series. The author notes the assistance of John Sampling, of the O.M.R.S. ] It's basically an compilation of U.K. War Office Awards Lists of the WW1 era. The List I was seeking is Titled;

©>>> "British Decorations Awarded To The Allied Armies"  List No. 40, War Office, 18 July 1919. Just as found with most L.G. 'Mentions', Lieut. Raymond's notice is also expecedly brief. It's listed of course under the 'Military Cross Awards' heading, & it reads as follows;  >> "1st Lieut. Albert Orville Raymond, M.O.R.C., Attd. 7th Bn., South Staffordshire Regiment." [ Verbatim ] <<<©

So, even though I didn't find it within the Gazette, I have to accept that this reference is probably the next best thing. And, if anyone happens across any information relevant to this M.C., I would love to hear from them.  I WISH TO THANK ANYONE & EVERYONE WHO SO KINDLY REPLIED TO MY QUERY, IT'S VERY MUCH APPRECIATED. 

 

                                 .     Best,    Dom Pastore Jr.  /  dpast32@aol.com

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Update: I made the post below before I read your latest post, Dom (it seems as if you got in just before me!), so it is now largely irrelevant but may be of some interest. Anyway, I am pleased that you now have an answer to the mystery which was bugging you!

---

Some further thoughts. From the following Gazette entries, it would appear that Raymond left the British Army to serve with the US forces sometime in March 1918. The biog indicates that, after the war, he served again with the British Army and this, presumably, was why he received the honorary rank of Lieutenant on 27 March 1919. What is striking is that there is no mention of the MC we believe he was awarded even though the officer three places above him in the second announcement is shown to have been awarded one. Does this mean he was awarded it after March 1919?

 

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The second thought is that the criteria for the awarding of the Military Cross officially changed on 22 Nov 1920 from "distinguished and meritorious services in time of War" to "gallant and distinguished services in action". This suggests that, regardless of when it was announced, he was awarded it for his first stint in the British Army, ending in March 1918.

 

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Edited by Trooper_D
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THANKS AGAIN !! I also came across something I've never heard of before. Again, according to Abbott & Tamplin's Chapter 32 concerning the M.C, he LISTA an order of sorts claiming that any recipient of an M.C. would not be authorized to add the M.C. after his name ? Now I for one have never heard this, but it is there on page 217, near the top of page, under 'Seventhly'. It states; "It is ordained that the Military Cross shall not confer any individual precedence, and shall not entitle the recipient to any addition after his name as part of his description or title". [ verbatim ] What's up with that ?? I've frequently observed British Officers sporting numerous award initials after their names ? Perhaps there's more to this, but as my expertise is not the Military Cross, I can't say for sure. I did note in Abbott & Tamplin that of the 320 or so M.C.'s awarded to U.S. Forces, an miniscule number were awarded for 'meritorious' & or 'services to the war effort'. Raymond's award just might be amongst the rarer versions ? 

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The regulation you are quoting is the first one, which created the Military Cross on 28 December 1914,

2021-02-04_21-30-34.png.368044908c85dd5c2f9f341c12258317.png

source: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29024/supplement/7

In 1916, and again in 1920, the regulations explicitly state that an officer can add MC after his name, as the extracts below show,

 

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source: https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/88424036 and following page

 

2021-02-04_21-19-55.png.b7bec23def298d4c0c4f590a16074176.png

source: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/32130/supplement/11306

 

Edited by Trooper_D
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See what I meant ? I couldn't comprehend the 7th rule, although it apparently didn't remain in effect very long. THANKS YET AGAIN !! This was my very 1st M.C. I have an MBE, along with a couple of M.M.'s, but never an M.C. until now.

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Hello again Gents, I 'think' I may already know the answer to this query, but I always prefer to confirm via someone a bit more versed in the subject than myself. It is in reference to the above mentioned 1st Lieutenant. / Captain Albert O. Raymond, M.C. formerly of the RAMC & U.S. Army's Medical Corps. We've determined that he was awarded the BWM, but IIRC, his example would have been issued unnamed ? I seem to recall reading this somewhere along the way over my years of collecting. Although I have 'an idea' that this may be the case, I am not absolutely certain about it. Can anyone please advise on this issue ? As always, any & all replies will be most deeply appreciated. THANKS

                              Dom P.  /  dpast32@aol.com

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The MC was not originally conceived as a fighting gallantry decoration. Its tenure as a 'distinguished and meritorious service' award was short-lived. By 1916 its status had been redefined as a combat award - quite possibly due to the input of the (then) Prince of Wales, who felt he'd not earned his MC (though it fell within the original remit). The same could be said of early DCMs, many of which were well below the 'VC near miss' par the medal since became.

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Hello again Gents, I 'think' I may already know the answer to this query, but I always prefer to confirm via someone a bit more versed in the subject than myself. It is in reference to the above mentioned 1st Lieutenant. / Captain Albert O. Raymond, M.C. formerly of the RAMC & U.S. Army's Medical Corps. We've determined that he was awarded the BWM, but IIRC, his example would have been issued unnamed ? I seem to recall reading this somewhere along the way over my years of collecting. Although I have 'an idea' that this may be the case, I am not absolutely certain about it. Can anyone please advise on this issue ? As always, any & all replies will be most deeply appreciated. THANKS

                              Dom P.  /  dpast32@aol.com

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THANKS YOU Tony, I appreciate your kind reply.  In reference to the question surrounding an 'Meritorious' M.C., as opposed to one awarded for 'Gallantry' is one which is apparently still discussed. I too am attempting to confirm which type of M.C. was awarded to the subject of my recent query, 1st Lieutenant Albert Orville n Raymond, RAMC / U.S. Army Medical Corps. Just based upon his 'Citation Document', it appears to have been of the 'Meritorious' type ? However, also based on the Document, it refers to his service with the 7th Battalion of the South Staffordshire Regiment. From what little reading I've accomplished in the last week, it appears to have been standard for the RAMC Command to make certain that their young Physicians were at least 'initiated' via a short period as near to the Front Lines as feasible. ( I'm not sure if this particular practice was also implemented on British Doctors, as the text I read pertained primarily to U.S. Doctors in British service. I honestly don't have any reason to think British personnel were exempt from this practice ? )  Even though Lieut. Raymond's Citation states 'Meritorious Service', it also specifically refers to the fact he was 'attached to the 7th So. Staff's, which may have been included to note that his tenure with them was near, and or on the Front Lines ? I did manage to download the complete WW1 War Diary of the 7th, but as I can find no way to actually search within it for Lt. / Dr. Raymond's name, I will have to read through each & every page from February 1917 onwards, which is when I surmise he was assigned to the unit ?  If anyone happens to know of an easier way to accomplish searching the Diaries, I would love to hear about it ? THANKS Gentleman,

 

                               Regards,      Dom P.  /  dpast32@aol.com

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Dom

In the second post in this thread, I pointed you to a post you had made in the Great War Forum. I assumed that you would have read the next post in that thread, which answered your question. In it, the poster said that the war diary entry for 30 Sept 1918 noted that "Lt Raymond US Medical Corps is attached for duty". Here is that entry, from the war diary I downloaded using the link in the post from Great War Forums I have quoted above,

2021-02-08_20-24-48.thumb.jpg.68eb8e8cfc0bdc261c763591040894ef.jpg

We know from earlier posts in this thread that he was attached to a hospital when he first join the British forces in Feb 1917. He then went to join the US forces in March 1918.

As for why he was awarded the MC, why do we need to look beyond what was said in the document, that it was awarded for 'meritorious service'? In effect, it was a thank you for serving with British forces twice, the first time before the USA's entry into the war. If it had be for an act of bravery, I am sure it would have stated such on the 

The real question here, I believe, is why he was attached to a British front line unit rather than continuing to serve in an orthopaedic hospital as he had been previously.

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Good Morning My Friend, 

         First, I wish to apologize my not looking into the GWF Forum Post a little deeper, as I really should have known better. I've been quite busy around home this past week or so, as we've had to deal with 2 not insignificant snow storms, of 9", then 3 days later another 8", with another round predicted later today or tomorrow !! Ohhh boy, what fun !! Honestly I'm getting too old for all of this. As much as I will miss my New England, it just might be time to relocate to Florida. So, between cleaning up the snow, I've been trying to compile whatever I can locate regarding Raymond. I've managed to download everything I turned up, but unfortunately am not able to print out any of it until my printer cartridges arrive, which hopefully will be in a few more days !! [ Never, ever had an issue finding ink for my printer, except recently !! My ctgs, if you can actually find any available, have risen in price over $20 each ctg. ] OK, back to Raymond ! The War Diary entry which you so kindly just sent me also allows us to 'track' his progress throughout the War years. At least at this point, I can now begin to assemble an chronology of service, both with the U.K. Forces through to the U.S. - A.E.F., & further on down the line until his eventual return home to the U.S. Based upon just what I've determined so far, it appears that much of his Post War career was spent as a local Physician, based in Worcester, Massachusetts. I'm sure there's more to his 'story', of which I will eventually learn sooner or later. And as for you my Friend, I AGAIN THANK YOU so very much for all of your continued assistance, & also wish to say that if there's anything you may ever need that you may think I might be able to provide, PLEASE feel free to just ask !!

 

                             Best,     Dom  /  dpast32

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Good Morning My Friend, 

         First, I wish to apologize my not looking into the GWF Forum Post a little deeper, as I really should have known better. I've been quite busy around home this past week or so, as we've had to deal with 2 not insignificant snow storms, of 9", then 3 days later another 8", with another round predicted later today or tomorrow !! Ohhh boy, what fun !! Honestly I'm getting too old for all of this. As much as I will miss my New England, it just might be time to relocate to Florida. So, between cleaning up the snow, I've been trying to compile whatever I can locate regarding Raymond. I've managed to download everything I turned up, but unfortunately am not able to print out any of it until my printer cartridges arrive, which hopefully will be in a few more days !! [ Never, ever had an issue finding ink for my printer, except recently !! My ctgs, if you can actually find any available, have risen in price over $20 each ctg. ] OK, back to Raymond ! The War Diary entry which you so kindly just sent me also allows us to 'track' his progress throughout the War years. At least at this point, I can now begin to assemble an chronology of service, both with the U.K. Forces through to the U.S. - A.E.F., & further on down the line until his eventual return home to the U.S. Based upon just what I've determined so far, it appears that much of his Post War career was spent as a local Physician, based in Worcester, Massachusetts. I'm sure there's more to his 'story', of which I will eventually learn sooner or later. And as for you my Friend, I AGAIN THANK YOU so very much for all of your continued assistance, & also wish to say that if there's anything you may ever need that you may think I might be able to provide, PLEASE feel free to just ask !!

 

                             Best,     Dom  /  dpast32

Just for the record, we're currently undergoing another 3" +/- as I write this !! Florida is looking better & better !! I do have an update of sorts pertaining to Let. Raymond, which I don't know how I missed it during my initial searches ? I just now turned it up, & have yet to actually read into it. However, it appears as if someone was searching for Officers within the 7th South Staffordshire's & made reference to Lieut. A. O. Raymond !! As soon as I'm done with my snow duty, I can't wait to delve into it !! 

LINK:   https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/201832-identity-of-7th-south-staffs-officers/

                 

                 Best,   Dom

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Here is the reference to Lieutenant Raymond I just mentioned, via the above noted GWF Link.

Raymond, Lieut. A. O. (American Army).

Joined, Sept., 1918. Returned to 33rd Field Ambulance, 24/2/1919.

 

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Hello Gents, Here's a brief update regarding the process I've managed to make pertaining to this Officer. I haven't been able to upload the relevant war diary pages yet for the dates in question, but hopefully I'll get them added in the immediate future. Although I haven't learned everything about his stint with the RAMC, I did however learn the following facts, both via British 33rd Field Ambulance, WW1 War Diary, Year of 1918.

 1 )  On 25 April 1918, Lieutenant. A. O. Raymond reported for duty at QIIA85 

2 )  On 29 September 1918, Lieutenant. A. O. Raymond, M.O.R.C., USA proceeded at 4:15 pm today to report to O/C 7th South Staffordshire Debt for duty - vice Capt. Clark, RAMC wounded. Location noted was Cherisy, O26d86, Sheet 51B

 

        Well, at least I'm moving along somewhat, but reading through those War Diary pages can become quite tedious ! ( Imagine If they were actually searchable ? ) Now, I would like to learn when & how he arrived with the 33rd Field Ambulance, as he didn't show up there until 25th of April 1918. If he arrived vin the U.K. during February 1917, where was he for over a year ? I know he had duty with some Orthopaedic unit soon after arriving, but I don't think he would have remained with them for that length of time ? I'm certain that Medical Officers of were desperately needed by that period over in France & Flanders, right ? 

 

                                     Best,    Dom P.  /  dpast32

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