London Gazette issue- trying to confirm an award!!

[dpk]

Recently acquired a nice MBE-Special Constabulary Long Service Medal pair and trying to locate the London Gazette entry for the MBE without any success. MBE is ist Issue Civil award, has silver hallmark for 1919, unnamed as issued and the SCLS is a KGV crowned head with Great War bar, named to George A. Crouch.

 

No matter how hard I try I cannot get Londone Gazette website search to bring the MBE award record up. I think it must be me because I then tried to find the award of a KPM I have and also failed to find any record of it, even though I have a copy of the KPM London Gazette entry so I know it is there!!

 

Looking for any advice, help etc.

Much appreciated- please PM me to dpk@iinet.net.au as I will see it quicker.

[Nightbreak]

Sometimes the best way to do it is search the London Gazette through Google itself.

 

If you use the search command "site:www.thegazette.co.uk" and put what you're looking for after it, you might have better luck.  What does the "A" stand for in George's name?  Full name might also help.

[dpk]

Thank you, Nightbreak, I will give that a try.

 

I don't know what the 'A." stands for- I have found a few George Crouch entries in Ancestry etc, and even a few George A,  possibly Arthur but none seem to be the right age for 1919 era issue of these medals.

 

I was hoping to go direct to the London Gazette entry for the MBE but so far no luck. I'll let you know!

Regards

Dave

[Nightbreak]

I've seen a George Alfred and George Albert in Ancestry, both of whom were born in the mid 1870s.  I don't know what the cutoff would be to be a Special Constable through the Great War instead of serving overseas, though

[QSAMIKE]

I have just done a look through the list of all grades of the Order of the British Empire and can only find one CROUCH with a medal issued between 1917 and 1920......   The only man I could find was a Paymaster Commander RN......

 

I would look after 1920 in the L.G.

 

Mike

[Michael Johnson]

Okay, a long shot, but could there have been a name change?

 

I once owned an MBE, pair and IGS 1908, with the last three named to Lt./Capt. M. Goodall, 1/9th G.R. on the IGS, but his wartime service was with the Assam Military Police.  His 1919 MBE is gazetted under Malcolm Ostrehan.  One of those cases of "losing" a Germanic-sounding name.

 

The only problem is that I can't find a LG entry for that either.

 

Michael

Edited April 3, 2022 by Michael Johnson

[dpk]

Thank you all, for your assistance so far. The medal pair are the MBE, unnamed as issued but with a hallmark of 1919. The SC LS medal is named to George A. Crouch but unfortunately I don't know which force he was with. Being a KGV crowned head with Great War bar, the medal was likely issued in 1919 (when it first appeared) or in the early 1920's.

A name change is possible but not sure how to check that out.

As to age of SC enlistments during WW1, I an unsure if any strict rules applied. I know of SC's in WW1 and later who were well into their 40's and 50's when they joined as well as young men in their 20's etc so the date of birth possibilities could be from about 1895 back to about 1865.

 

I have searched Ancestry and Find My past etc and have found a number of George Crouch entries but nothing in their data identifies them as MBE or as Special Constable. Even less George A. Crouch entries, and same result. 

 

It's a good problem to have, when I wake up at night- it gives me something to think about and better than counting sheep!!

David

[QSAMIKE]

One of the things that I have found is that even though it may be hallmarked 1919 it may have been issued a number of years later.....   I have found that up to and including January 1st 1920 there were 10,479 MBE's issued so a number of them being made in 1919 is quite possible.....   I have a group with an  Edward 7th MSN that was issued in 1917, seven years after he had died, just using up medals from stock..... 

 

Don't lose any sleep though, after all if we knew all the answers this would be a boring hobby......

 

Mike

[Michael Johnson]

It is possible that the name is there, but the OCR scanning misread a letter or two "Orouch" perhaps.  I've had that happen with Second War era Imperial Service Medal gazettes.  Or it may be that, as is stated on the site that they are missing an issue.

 

That being said, it is strange that it isn't in the 1921 Burke's Handbook to the Order of the British Empire.  But it could be after 1921.

 

Michael

[dpk]

Hi Michael and QSAMike,

Interesting take on the award date- and I wasn't aware of Burke's Handbook. If it was awarded in the several years after the hallmark date of 1919 then that book may provide another source of information. Is it available anywhere so I could search it, or could I impose on you to search beyond 1919 if you have access to it and it is not too much to ask?

 

David

[QSAMIKE]

Good Morning David......

 

Burke's handbook only goes as far as 1921 sorry......    I understand that due to the huge amount of work and expense, and it seemed that not many were sold, Burke's decided that they would not  publish anymore......  In all levels above an OBE or MBE they put in a full biography so you can see the work needed......

 

Mike

 

 

[Michael Johnson]

Perhaps the answer is to search the London Gazette from 1921 to 1923, only for "Order of the British Empire", "civil division" and "Supplement", then go through each hit looking for anything close to "Crouch".

 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/all-notices/London/notice?results-page-size=10&categorycode-all=all&numberOfLocationSearches=1&start-publish-date=1921-01-01&location-distance-1=1&text="Order+of+the+British+Empire"+"civil+division"+supplement&end-publish-date=1923-01-01

 

I only get four hits, which doesn't seem right.

 

Michael

Edited April 4, 2022 by Michael Johnson

[dpk]

Thank you Michael! No sooner does one door close, than another slams in your face! I will go back to the seller and urge him to find the alleged printed copy of the Gazette notice, although how someone found it to print it it has me beat.

Best regards

David