Imperial Russia St-George Cross

[love4history]

Hello everybody,

I know next to nothing about this medal but it seems that I might get hold of one. I was wondering if this is a rare medal or rather common? It's my understanding that it comes in different classes right? What are approximate values for the different classes? Are there any fakes around? (Just want to make sure that I don't get ripped of) Thanks for helping this layman out!

cheers to everybody

[Igor Ostapenko]

Hello everybody,

I know next to nothing about this medal but it seems that I might get hold of one. I was wondering if this is a rare medal or rather common? It's my understanding that it comes in different classes right? What are approximate values for the different classes? Are there any fakes around? (Just want to make sure that I don't get ripped of) Thanks for helping this layman out!

cheers to everybody

Hello !

If you have some crosses or medals - post the pictures (or send to my e-mail )

About the crosses - see hier http://nubirus.chat.ru/HomepageEnglish.htm

[Pete A]

Also, would it be order of St. George (white enamel) or "soldier's cross" of St. George (silver / gold, like in Igor's wonderful link)?

[love4history]

Hi,

Thank you for the indeed wonderfull link. I'm reading trough it with interest. Here's the only picture I have so far. Might be difficult to be able to tell me something about them from this picture I guess? What's an approximate value for these crosses?

Thank you for your help!

[Igor Ostapenko]

Verry small picture

[love4history]

Verry small picture

He...he... yes I know... sorry

I'll try to get other pictures and post them, but I won't be able to do it today...

[Igor Ostapenko]

Send to me the pictures

********************************************

These crosses are not originals .

Edited May 5, 2006 by Igor Ostapenko

[love4history]

Send to me the pictures

********************************************

These crosses are not originals .

Thanks for the info. A+

How do you know?

[Tim Tezer]

There are definitely fakes around, especially in the yellow metal 1st and 2nd classes of the cross, and the non-Christian versions. Fourth classes are not so valuable, so you are less likely to encounter quality fakes, but even those have been copied. Things to look out for:

- Wrong suspension loop. These should always be the flat lugs as shown in the pictures above. Some private purchase pieces were made with different styles of suspension, and they are perfectly legitimate period examples, but they were usually of noticeably higher quality and would not have any serial numbers on the reverse.

- Uneven surfaces on the flat parts of the cross arms. Some cast copies have a "wavy" look to them.

- Serial numbers that are not stamped. Cast copies may have the serial numbers cast into the cross rather than stamped after manufacture, but it can be very hard to tell the difference. Serial numbers were never engraved, either.

- Dull sounds. I'm not kidding. If you take one off the suspension loop and drop it flat onto a hard surface like a glass table, it should ring like a coin. Cast or electrotype copies make a very dull metallic sound.

Tim

[Mathomhaus]

Copies of the St. George crosses seem to have been sold frequently in Russian museum gift shops during the soviet era. They were certainly on sale in many flea markets in Moscow and St. Petersburg when I was there last summer - as were slightly nicer made versions in "high end" gift shops. (As a matter of fact, the State Historical Museum on Red Square was selling copies of virtually all of the Imperial orders; unlike the glass enamel soviet-era bronze-gilt souvenir copies, the ones on sale now all seem to have acyrillic "soft enamel" - i.e. they'll undoubtedly glow "tangerine" under black light.)

Most of the souvenir versions of George crosses that I've seen tend to have an obverse that's somewhat bigger than the reverse (or vice versa); so when you look at the edges or the ends of the cross arms you will see a pronounced slant to some of the edges - in other words, the edges are not at right angles to the faces of the cross arms.

Jim

[Detlev]

hello,

can anyone help me out with this one?

thank you,

Detlev

[Igor Ostapenko]

this one - not copy , not fake ... it's fantasy ...

[Detlev]

thank you Igor,

so this is not a true medal?

[Igor Ostapenko]

original crosses for muslims and jews http://medalirus.narod.ru/Nag19_20/Georgkr/inover.htm

[Mathomhaus]

Two years after I wrote my earlier comment (above), I was was told by a fellow whom I respect as an advanced collector of imperial Russian orders and medals that finding slanted sides on the arms of a St. George cross is perfectly o.k. if it's a cross issued during WW1...

Regards

[Detlev]

si can mine be an genuine one?

best regards,

Detlev

[Mathomhaus]

Not taking anything into consideration with regard to things like size, weight, and whether the design matches an accepted original pattern, I would not buy this medal because the finish on it is identical to the many copies that flooded the American market back in the early 90s. If you go through the souvenir shops or look at the "flea market" tables in Moscow or St. Petersburg even today you will see crosses with the same vaguely antiqued finish and invariably they will be on Soviet era or current "St. George" ribbon.

St. George crosses "for non-Christians" are among the rarest of the rare. Not all photos in reference books (like Durov's) of originals in museum collections are particularly helpful - the focus may be slightly off or the color not true - but if you look at them whenever you have the chance you will come to the realization that virtually none have an almost "antiqued" finish like the one in your photo.

While hyper-rare items can always show up in the most unexpected of places - that's part of the fun of collecting! - I personally would not buy a non-Christian St. George cross today from anyone except an established dealer in (or auctioneer of) Russian militaria. True, I would pay a lot for it but at least I'd be able to sleep at night.

Regards

[boblove]

Hello

This my first post to any forum, anywhere. Hope I don't violate any rules.

I have a cross given to me by my grandfather, now deceased. He was in the Russian Army and Navy. He came to USA in 1912. It appears to be St. George Cross. It has a serial number 152 241.

My question: Are there records relating this serial number to the person it was awarded to and other details of the award?

Thank you for any information anyone can provide.

Bob

[Claudius]

Hello

This my first post to any forum, anywhere. Hope I don't violate any rules.

I have a cross given to me by my grandfather, now deceased. He was in the Russian Army and Navy. He came to USA in 1912. It appears to be St. George Cross. It has a serial number 152 241.

My question: Are there records relating this serial number to the person it was awarded to and other details of the award?

Thank you for any information anyone can provide.

Bob

Hello Bob;

While I can't speak for the Chairman and the Moderators; Welcome to the GMIC forum!

I don't know what rules you are afraid of breaking. I would say that I would not concern yourself with that too much right now. If you say anything too out of line, you would be gently informed by the Moderators.

Having said that however, the first and greatest rule is always to conduct yourself in a polite and courteous manner on the forum. Hence the first name in the forum's title; "Gentleman's" referring to the manner of behavior, and not, as a misguided misogynist might think, to be exclusive of women.

Now then....I can assure you that many on this forum would love to discuss your Cross, but first, it would be very helpful if you could post some good photos of it. Front and back. Any other photos or documents you may have from your Grandfather would also be helpful. I think that will really facilitate the conversation.

Hope to see more from you soon.

[boblove]

Claudius,

Thanks for reply.

I'll try to get photos.

There is little additional information except what exists in my memory of conversations with Grampa.

He said he'd received the medal for saving the life of his CO in combat. Where? When? I don't know. He served in China for a time and could speak some chinese. He taught me a little chinese as a child but I don't recall any. I am now 75.

He was an orphan, raised by an uncle, and a conscript from a little town named Balzar near the Volga river.

Shortly after completing military service, he foresaw the coming Russian revolution and decided to seek a better life elsewhere (USA). He was recruited along with other young men by a Burlington Railroad touring headhunter seeking laborers. He left his new bride on Christmas Eve. He arrived in Lincoln Nebraska, lived as a boarder with a family until after about a year, he'd saved enough to pay passage for my Grandmother. He became a steam locomotive engineer in the roundhouse and yards. In the early 1930's they moved to Chicago where he worked for The Northwestern Railroad. They never visited Russia. He became a naturalized citizen. She did not. He was heart and soul an American taking every opportunity to praise the US.

He passed away at age 93. Before he died, he gave me the medal. It had no ribbon. I was instructed to get some orange and black ribbon for the medal and have the undertaker put the medal on his jacket for the funeral service and remove it before the casket was closed..

That's as much as I know and how I came to have the medal. I have little doubt that it is authentic since its been closely held, to my certain knowledge.

I'd like to know if records exist that would verify what I know.

I intend to eventually pass the medal to my daughter.

Bob

[Igor Ostapenko]

this cross may to be for Russo-japan war 1904-1905 yy

[Claudius]

Hello Bob;

This is a great oral history of your family. You should write it all down for your descendants (Ok, you just did when you posted this on the forum, but you want something printed out and kept with the cross.)

I look forward to seeing the photos of the medal.

[boblove]

Several years ago while surfing net, I ran across something about a book on the St Georges Cross. The book was published in Russian. It appeared to be a possible source of info I was seeking. I didn't pursue the matter further.

Does this ring a bell in anyones head?

[Mathomhaus]

You are probably referring to a deluxe red-bound volume that listed all of the recipients of the enamelled Order of St. George.

The good news is that any lists of the names of the enlisted men and ncos who received the St. George cross (lists that weren't lost or destroyed during two world wars and the Revolution) have been reprinted in Russia; the bad news is that, at least as of the last time I checked (back in 2010), all of the publications giving the lists were out of print.

Regards

[boblove]

You are probably referring to a deluxe red-bound volume that listed all of the recipients of the enamelled Order of St. George.

The good news is that any lists of the names of the enlisted men and ncos who received the St. George cross (lists that weren't lost or destroyed during two world wars and the Revolution) have been reprinted in Russia; the bad news is that, at least as of the last time I checked (back in 2010), all of the publications giving the lists were out of print.

Regards