Soviet Red Banner Reverse

[rboomsma]

Im am told due to the dates it is most likey for bombing Finland??

Can anyone confirm for me on dates??

Red Banner Mirror Reverse # 14730

Award Card

To Kazinsky, Sergy Alekseevich

Lieutenant

Commander of Unit 44 High speed Bombardier Regiment

Approved date for Order of Red Banner 22 July 1941, for fighting fascism.

Born in 1914 in Baku, Azerbaijan

Party member since 1914

Nationality was Russian

Awarded Red Banner 20th of September 1941 in Leningrad

Document No 080483

Recommendation Document for Order/medal

To Kazinsky, Sergy Alekseevich

Lieutenant

Head Pilot of 44th High speed Bombardier Regiment of the 55th High Speed Bombardier Brigade

For Bravery

Dated by the Presidiums of the CCCP 15th January 1940

Signed 7th Army February 1940 #690

[Guest Rick Research]

where's the citation TEXT for that citation information????????

[rboomsma]

where's the citation TEXT for that citation information????????

This is all I got no citation text provided, I have to assume there is none. Or no more info could be found.

I have sent an email to the researcher for an explantion as I did ask for the citation.

Edited May 7, 2006 by rboomsma

[Guest Rick Research]

What you have given is the TOP of the citation page and the BOTTOM (and possobly reverse) of the citation page...

with no text in the MIDDLE of the citation page!

I hope you will be receiving actual copies of this, the way we do when ours come back, and not just partial translation by email!

I cannot understand ANY way for there to be a top and bottom with no middle on the original page-- check out the copies scanned in our researched groups threads.

Did you ask for his Awards Record Card and his personnel record? ONLY a citation is just a snapshot of ONE event in a CAREER...

and you've only got a part even of that!

In fact, since the TOP dates are from July of 1941... the BOTTOM dates from early 1940 it sounds like you have been part of the front of ONE citation and the reverse of some completely DIFFERENT citation.

Screwback Red Banner 14,713-- only a few hundred off from yours, I show as a November 1941 award.

[rboomsma]

I asked for the citation and Award card book.

I got actuall copies no email. Translation is by my wife.

I got the award card info and there was another page that was smae size with item lines from 1 to 17, most was blank other than his name and regiment. I am assuming this was the citation, just not filled out. I will try to scan the second doc, maybe you can tell me if this is the citation.

Many thanks.

What you have given is the TOP of the citation page and the BOTTOM (and possobly reverse) of the citation page...

with no text in the MIDDLE of the citation page!

I hope you will be receiving actual copies of this, the way we do when ours come back, and not just partial translation by email!

I cannot understand ANY way for there to be a top and bottom with no middle on the original page-- check out the copies scanned in our researched groups threads.

Did you ask for his Awards Record Card and his personnel record? ONLY a citation is just a snapshot of ONE event in a CAREER...

and you've only got a part even of that!

In fact, since the TOP dates are from July of 1941... the BOTTOM dates from early 1940 it sounds like you have been part of the front of ONE citation and the reverse of some completely DIFFERENT citation.

Screwback Red Banner 14,713-- only a few hundred off from yours, I show as a November 1941 award.

[rboomsma]

Attached is the docs I got the one on the left is the award card, the one on the right is the second doc I got with lines 1 thru 17, I assume this is the citation. Any help would be appreciated.

My wife does not translate that well.

I asked for the citation and Award card book.

I got actuall copies no email. Translation is by my wife.

I got the award card info and there was another page that was smae size with item lines from 1 to 17, most was blank other than his name and regiment. I am assuming this was the citation, just not filled out. I will try to scan the second doc, maybe you can tell me if this is the citation.

Many thanks.

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes, scan what you have and if it is too large, post in "pieces" one section at a time. I'll be back Sunday afternoon!

That's a wartime version of the Award Record Card you've posted above as I first typed this.

It does indeed say his Red Banner was awarded on 22 July 1941, but can't read the issuing authority stamp at the right of the entry.

I think what they must have meant by the awkward unit designation is "Ground Attack Bombers"-- whatever aircraft the Soviets used to function like the German Sruka dive bombers did. Low and fast... not high altitude level flying!

[rboomsma]

back pages in same order.

Attached is the docs I got the one on the left is the award card, the one on the right is the second doc I got with lines 1 thru 17, I assume this is the citation. Any help would be appreciated.

My wife does not translate that well.

[Guest Rick Research]

Yup-- there is the confirmation of serial number and the date in September it was handed out. We almost never see this early type of Award Record Card.

11:30 PM and I have to go to bed... if I get into tranlating it'll be too late to get my oldbones up EARLY in the morning to go to a show with my Evil Twin!

Back Sunday afternoon!

[NavyFCO]

What you've got there are two award cards, but unfortunately no citations. I'm not surprised that there isn't a citation for the Finnish War For Valor medal, but not having one for the wartime award is a bit unusual, though not unheard of. Imagine what was happening at that time on the front... the HQ could have gotten overrun and...viola...no more citation!

The best way to find out about these is to get his personnel file and service history. Somewhere in his PF there will probably be a listing of what fronts he was on, and perhaps even a synopsis of what his citations were. His autobiography will also probably state that he fought against so-and-so from such-and-such a time.

Neat piece... very early war!!! I'd love to see the citation!

Dave

[rboomsma]

Thanks Dave

It makes more sense now. So the second doc is for the Medal of Valour and not to do with the Red Banner?

Am I to assume it was a medal of valour but non serial numbered variation?

I didn't ask for personal files on all of the researched orders I had done due to costs.

I got one Red banner 4th award done and I may get his personal record as he got a wack of orders and medals. He was also awarded a Kutuzov 2nd class, so his record may be very interesting.

What you've got there are two award cards, but unfortunately no citations. I'm not surprised that there isn't a citation for the Finnish War For Valor medal, but not having one for the wartime award is a bit unusual, though not unheard of. Imagine what was happening at that time on the front... the HQ could have gotten overrun and...viola...no more citation!

The best way to find out about these is to get his personnel file and service history. Somewhere in his PF there will probably be a listing of what fronts he was on, and perhaps even a synopsis of what his citations were. His autobiography will also probably state that he fought against so-and-so from such-and-such a time.

Neat piece... very early war!!! I'd love to see the citation!

Dave

[Guest Rick Research]

I did not realize that there were second pages OFF SCREEN RIGHT on both of your posts-- I only saw what looked like one page and one page. Mea culpa for not sliding over.

It really isn't cost effective to have to request research more than once...

just go for the fullest possible records and hope for the best!

[rboomsma]

So is the second paper the citation just lacking information as most of it is blank?

[Guest Rick Research]

Oops, typing at same time. I did not realize that there were TWO pages posted side by side in each of the scans above-- I thought that it was side one and side two in the two posts. I did not see the pages off monitor screen until checking back to see what Dave was referring to about the Valor Medal.

These are NOT the citations, these are only the wartime version of Award Record Cards. He should have received-- assuming he was not killed-- the "normal" fully detailed type after the war.

So yes, it shows a 1940 Valor Medal which unfortunately was sloppily filled out without noting its serial number, and a summer 1941 Red Banner.

The RIGHT hand off screen page you have shown in the first scan is the FRONT side, questions 1 through 9, of the BACK side of the SECOND right hand off screen page you have in the second scan above. The two pages on the left hand sides in both scans do NOT go with those pages.

[Guest Rick Research]

THESE two pages go together, front and back of the same sheet in the file:

[attachmentid=38284]

Questions 10 on are sloppily not filled out-- ty[ical of wartime paperwork, because the same information would be in his personnel file.

[rboomsma]

THESE two pages go together, front and back of the same sheet in the file:

[attachmentid=38284]

Questions 10 on are sloppily not filled out-- ty[ical of wartime paperwork, because the same information would be in his personnel file.

Thanks, I guess I will have to ask where the citaion is, or why I didn't get it.

[NavyFCO]

Thanks, I guess I will have to ask where the citaion is, or why I didn't get it.

For the pre-WW2 For Valor, I've never seen a citation for one of those before. Award card yes, citation, no. I don't think they exist in the central archives. The other citation may not exist either... As I said in the previous post, it may well have been destroyed at the front, or enroute to the rear... the early war citations are super "hit and miss" because of the huge movement of frontlines and losses of volumes of documents.

Dave

[Guest Rick Research]

Ask for his personnel record-- assuming he was not killed, THAT should provide details on where his units served.

It really is easiest in the long run to ask for ALL research at once, and then know for sure what is available rather than requesting bits and pieces several times.

[Ed_Haynes]

Yet, sometimes, you may need to request "all", more than once, to get it "ALL".

[NavyFCO]

Ask for his personnel record-- assuming he was not killed, THAT should provide details on where his units served.

It really is easiest in the long run to ask for ALL research at once, and then know for sure what is available rather than requesting bits and pieces several times.

Actually, were he killed, his Red Banner would have returned to the state. Thus, we wouldn't be discussing this - so it's obvious that he survived the War. (I've only gotten one personnel file back from a KIA officer, but that was only because he was awarded an OGPW posthumously - the only award of the USSR that could be kept... technically)

Anyway, I actually don't ask for all the research at once so as "screen" those groups that I request personnel files on. Perhaps it's because I normally turn groups shortly after researching them, but unless the group belonged to a general/admiral or a very unusual officer, the addition of the personnel file with the group normally doesn't provide decent "return on investment" for me - normally just the citations and service history will do. Since the personnel file can be requested based on the information from the award card, there's normally not a significant extra cost (save for mailing) involved with requesting the personnel file at a later date. Of course, that does mean that you might have to wait an extra six to eight months for the personnel file after getting the initial research...

Dave

[Ed_Haynes]

Actually, were he killed, his Red Banner would have returned to the state. Thus, we wouldn't be discussing this - so it's obvious that he survived the War. (I've only gotten one personnel file back from a KIA officer, but that was only because he was awarded an OGPW posthumously - the only award of the USSR that could be kept... technically)

Really . . . you have me very confused now, Dave.

See: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2326

(Reminding me, of course, that I need to get together some scans for you . . . oops.)

[rboomsma]

Since the personnel file can be requested based on the information from the award card, there's normally not a significant extra cost (save for mailing) involved with requesting the personnel file at a later date. Of course, that does mean that you might have to wait an extra six to eight months for the personnel file after getting the initial research...

Dave

Thats what I was thinking also. I wanted to then reveiw who they were and if they were important.

Then request additional items such as personal file or other citations. Like my Red Banner #4 he got A Kutuzov 2nd class and a Neveskey plus the other 3 red banners, and various other medals. So I am now thinking this one might be worth getting the extra.

[NavyFCO]

Really . . . you have me very confused now, Dave.

See: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2326

(Reminding me, of course, that I need to get together some scans for you . . . oops.)

Ed-

Don't be too confused.... The RSFSR Red Banners were another case altogether, rather than the "normal" Soviet awards - Red Banners, Lenins, etc. Should this one have been returned to the state? Sure, it probably should have. However, there's any number of reasons that it wasn't, ranging from the fact that it was RSFSR vice USSR (probably the main reason, I believe) the fact that he was a general (they still took their awards back though) it may have been put in a museum after his death and later sold out of the museum or, it simply may have fallen "through the cracks" which I'm sure is possible, though unlikely. I've encountered a full Glory Cavalier group to a KIA that was never taken back by the state, even though Glories technically should have been. This is one of those very unexact sciences...

Dave

[Mondvor]

Ed-

Don't be too confused.... The RSFSR Red Banners were another case altogether, rather than the "normal" Soviet awards - Red Banners, Lenins, etc. Should this one have been returned to the state? Sure, it probably should have. However, there's any number of reasons that it wasn't, ranging from the fact that it was RSFSR vice USSR (probably the main reason, I believe) the fact that he was a general (they still took their awards back though) it may have been put in a museum after his death and later sold out of the museum or, it simply may have fallen "through the cracks" which I'm sure is possible, though unlikely. I've encountered a full Glory Cavalier group to a KIA that was never taken back by the state, even though Glories technically should have been. This is one of those very unexact sciences...

Dave

Gentlemen, I want to add my five cents to your conversation. Not necessarily that Kazinskij survived the war. Most likely he did survive, I hope so. But the presence of the order is not a guarantee that he was not KIA.

Situation 1. His plane was shot down and crashed into the wood (river, swamp, etc). In early 90th it was found by so-called "black pathfinders" (not sure how to translate it properly). We have a lot of those bastards in Russia and Ukraine - those looters illegally search for war-time military equipment and even dig-out military graves looking for war relics (guns, medals, etc.). Probably they took Red Banner from the body of dead pilot and sold it to Russian dealer, who later sold it to the West. Pretty common situation. My friends sent me some images of such awards. Among them were two 3-rivets Red Stars, screwback Red Banner and Military Merit medal. One of those Red Stars came from crashed bomber that was found in Caucasian mountains.

Situation 2. His plane was shot down, but he survived with a parachute and later was captured by advanced German troops. After quick interrogation Kazinskij was killed and German officer took his order as a souvenir. Also pretty common situation. Take a look at the picture that I attach below. This is Russian pilot HSU Major Antonov. Do you think Germans will return his awards to the state?

OK, I must confess that those situations are not very common. They are exceptions to the rule. But we should remember that everything was possible during the war.

[rboomsma]

My researcher tells me:

For early awards

(pre-1941) the citations are stored in a different

archive with limited access. If you want I can also

look the guy up in the era newspapers. At least I am

likely to get the "list" citation and, may be, more

info.

So I have asked to do that, maybe we can get a little more info on the pilot.

Gentlemen, I want to add my five cents to your conversation. Not necessarily that Kazinskij survived the war. Most likely he did survive, I hope so. But the presence of the order is not a guarantee that he was not KIA.

Situation 1. His plane was shot down and crashed into the wood (river, swamp, etc). In early 90th it was found by so-called "black pathfinders" (not sure how to translate it properly). We have a lot of those bastards in Russia and Ukraine - those looters illegally search for war-time military equipment and even dig-out military graves looking for war relics (guns, medals, etc.). Probably they took Red Banner from the body of dead pilot and sold it to Russian dealer, who later sold it to the West. Pretty common situation. My friends sent me some images of such awards. Among them were two 3-rivets Red Stars, screwback Red Banner and Military Merit medal. One of those Red Stars came from crashed bomber that was found in Caucasian mountains.

Situation 2. His plane was shot down, but he survived with a parachute and later was captured by advanced German troops. After quick interrogation Kazinskij was killed and German officer took his order as a souvenir. Also pretty common situation. Take a look at the picture that I attach below. This is Russian pilot HSU Major Antonov. Do you think Germans will return his awards to the state?

OK, I must confess that those situations are not very common. They are exceptions to the rule. But we should remember that everything was possible during the war.