notned Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 Hello Gents,Have the opportunity to purchase this wee bar....BUT before i rush into things....i want to know what the 3rd ribbon is for and if this medal is easily obtainable....i plan to restore the bar with the appropriate decorations...and wanted to check on this unknown medal before taking the plunge It has the prongs on the back for hanging the medals...hence the desire to restore it Thanks for your help!RegardsPaul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeikoGrusdat Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 Paul, that`s not easy because it is a one-coloured green ribbon which offers many possibilities... we are in a time frame from 1866, 1870/71 and before 1897... there are several medals from saxon, saxon duchies, too many possibilities to guess the right one - BUT - good for you, you can choose one of the many to complete your bar... but you will never 100% know if it is the right one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 Why not leave the nice little bar the way it is, rather than manufacture a piece of fiction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 I think it is perfectly acceptable to take a hookback bar with no medals and slip on awards that are appropriate-- there is no permanent change made to the bar.Dark green and in position after the campaign medals suggests:bearing in mind that this is a PRE-1897 bar--there being no Kaiser Wilhelm Centenary Medal from that year, and to a PRUSSIAN veteran of 1866--something indeed so weird and unexpected that ONLY for that reason I'd be tempted to leave it "as is" since I can't imagine what it could be!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeikoGrusdat Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 Rick I know what you are talking about.... IMPOSSIBLE!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 I think it is perfectly acceptable to take a hookback bar with no medals and slip on awards that are appropriate-- there is no permanent change made to the bar.But is an assertion -- or implication -- of "history" not being made? And very falsely made?Sorry to be an ethical and historical purist, but I do think this is something that people need to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 Yeah Ed, but from the OTHER direction:we have absolutely NO way to EVER tell that ANY hook back medal bar EVER made bears its "original" awardsdo we?That is only something that can be judged by medal bars with the awards permanently sewn down, where we can tell if there've been little monkey fingers disturbing things.So each and every hookie is an 'as found," innit? (That's one reason why I don't collect them. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeikoGrusdat Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 I think it is a very simple solution... something like a prussian man that has moved to saxony or another state later, I would say this could be for example a "Treue in der Arbeit" medal, or a Nassau Landwirtschaftsmedal, or a floodmedal Saxe-Altenburg 1890........ some kind of "civil merit" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notned Posted May 7, 2006 Author Share Posted May 7, 2006 (edited) Hmmm, the dilemma continues....Ed, i do see your point...but as Rick says..its nigh on impossible to Guarantee that the medals came with the bar....with these "hookies"Heiko, can you possibly post pics of the medals you mention? it will give me a start on what to look for...Thanks!But if you look closely...the hook for the green ribbon is a tad wider that the other two,,, which suggests to me that the medal could possibly be using a different suspension....this would give us a BIG clue to what the medal could possibly be...... Edited May 7, 2006 by notned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 Ed, i do see your point...but as Rick says..its nigh on impossible to Guarantee that the medals came with the bar....with these "hookies"Yep, and that's why I suggest to leave it as it is with no medals. It may be (and I think it is) an interesting intellectual exercise to ponder what medal that final mystery ribbon may represent. But the step of replacing (I'd not use the word "restoring", and might use less delicate words) the medals is quite another thing . . . .It is a lovely thing with some nice history, why muck with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notned Posted May 7, 2006 Author Share Posted May 7, 2006 Ed,Since these bars are not of the named type and there is no paperwork with this bar....i am of a disposition to find medals for it JUST for display purposes...not to twist History....also i think that the ribbons are nothing without the medals....( exception of ribbon bars, which are for that express purpose of being ribbon bars)But then again...with the plethora of choices..i may be Mis-representing the bar in its entirety...so i may not 'replace' the medals....Hmmm, thanks gents...food for thought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddywhack Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 iv one or two of these hook bar well bars and they dont have medals and i plan to find medals that are missing there ribbions and only missing there ribbions to make them whole again! i reckon that alot of these medals of this era that are missing there ribbions are missing them because they have been removed from bars like this! plus they look i think so much better with the medals on them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 (edited) Ed,Since these bars are not of the named type and there is no paperwork with this bar....i am of a disposition to find medals for it JUST for display purposes...not to twist History....also i think that the ribbons are nothing without the medals....( exception of ribbon bars, which are for that express purpose of being ribbon bars)But then again...with the plethora of choices..i may be Mis-representing the bar in its entirety...so i may not 'replace' the medals....Hmmm, thanks gents...food for thought!Thanks, but I am fully aware of the limitations that surround German groups as compared to those of most other nations. I am also aware -- and have been re-educated on an ongoing basis by the rich posts and top-quality research displayed on this forum -- that a great deal of history can be coaxed from these unnamed, unnumbered, usually undocumented, "unattributable" German groups. Alas, anything that is "just for display" purposes may, in the hands of the next collector or dealer, become an assertion of a completely fraudulent (yet quite profitable) history and a permanent cancerous growth on a small, elegant piece of history like the one you have posted here. We will not -- and I hate to break this to you -- own forever these things of which we have custody today. In a few decades, they will pass along down the chain of custody that began with the only legitimate owner, the recipient. Excuse me if I am over-sentimental, but I think we owe it to him (or her) to keep his material as unpolluted by our over-active fantasies as possible. We do not do him (or her) any favors) by "restoring" his group according to our wishes, our guesswork, or maybe even (and here it gets gray) our research. We may help our pockets, though.I shall shut up now. You're welcome. Edited May 7, 2006 by Ed_Haynes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notned Posted May 7, 2006 Author Share Posted May 7, 2006 Ed,Good and very valid point. and please do not shut up...its good to discuss these things...if more people read this, maybe we can change a few....perhaps convert their thinking somewhat...at least make them aware of the possibilities of their actions..I for one am not going to try to add the medals to line my own pockets...i will document this and advise the next custodian, of the additions made and why.But on the other hand...maybe just leaving it as it is...can be a good thing...But THEN theres the very real possibility that the next custodian will add the medals and work on the profiteering aspect of this ... a no win situation....so the moral dilemma begins..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudius Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 I agree w/ Ed and Paddywack/Rick...I'll explain...First, ANY medals you put on this bar are not the ORIGINAL medals. We know the first two are the 1866 and 1870/71 campaign medals, but the original medals to this bar are gone. Why is this important? Just look at this bar. It has a very homemade look to it. It's aged and looks well worn, but where the medal hung, there isn't a lot of natural wear. Perhaps the owner was very pleased with his service in two wars and wanted to have this bar made very soon after the 1871 conflict. And he wore the bar, but he did not frequently hang the medals. Or maybe he wore the 1866 medal for years by itself and only when he was in the 1870/71 war did he have a mount made. The style was to have it possible to remove the medals and wear the bar as only a ribbon bar. Then when he died maybe that's how the family found them. The medals went one direction and the bar another. The point is we don't even know what condition the medals he owned were in. Do you get bright shiny medals or worn, tarnished ones? Yes, I'm a bit of a purist.Having said that, if representative medals are going to hang from under the bar, they need to be (in my opinion) without serious question, the correct ones. It would be difficult to argue anything but the 1866 and the Franco-Prussian War medals in the first two positions. The third is speculative. To put anything there is lend credibility to that medal on that medal bar. What would solve this is if even one example trio medal bar (with sown on medals) that would show these three medals together. That way, even if the original medals are gone, and there is still is a possibility that a different, green ribboned medal was originally in this place, there can be no argument that the trio being represented did exist. Now then, between all of us collectors, over all these years, has anyone ever collected a bar of this age that also had a dr. green ribbon mounted after the 1870/71 medal? It should be possible. It's unreasonable to say this is the only example. I often dislike it when I'm told by a seller that any inconsistencies or irregularities I find in his products is due to the fact that "its a very rare marking/die mold/grouping/(enter-what-you-want)". My collecting friend and I used to have a saying for this situation that we would privately share..."It is such a unique configuration that it was never made" (i.e. a never issued fake made to look even more valuable).I hope an (unadulterated) example can be found to lend credibility to the third medal's identity. Until then, this is my opinion.Oh BTW: That is a nice ribbon bar, even without the exact indentity of the third medal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 I think it is a very simple solution... something like a prussian man that has moved to saxony or another state later, I would say this could be for example a "Treue in der Arbeit" medal, or a Nassau Landwirtschaftsmedal, or a floodmedal Saxe-Altenburg 1890........ some kind of "civil merit" Then there is always my favorite - that elusive Brunswick lifesaving medal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 Yes, the mind BOGGLES. If we toss NON-German awards (remembering that this pre-dates 1897) into the possibles list...well, no matter what might fit, it's going to be expensive!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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