Soviet What is this document

[rboomsma]

If some one could explain what these docs are. I asked for research on a Red Banner #3 and 4.

I asked for the award card and citations. I got the award cards and both came with this doc, which seems to show mass awards of Lenins and Red Banners on the following pages, both my holders of the Red Banners are listed in the section for Red Banners awards. It does not state what number of red banner they are getting, just that they are getting one.

I have already come to the conculsion that these are not citations, so what is this document exactley. And did I not get any citations because these Red Banners my have been long servcie awards???

This doc below shows 185 lenins to be awarded and to whom. And 2625 Red Banners to be given out, my guy is listed number 116

Edited May 7, 2006 by rboomsma

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes, this is a Decree (Ukaz) of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR (circled) for mass bestowal of awards to generals, officers, and servicemen for long service in the armed forces (underlined):

[attachmentid=38287]

In a VERY few cases there is an enthusiastic "citation" for these-- I've seen at least one that Dave has posted, but generally these are all that such awards had.

For example-- and as you can see from the posted dates/numbers thread:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=7861

On the first bestowal of long service Red Banners, 3 November 1944, at least 50,000 were given in ONE such Ukaz. On 30 Decmebr 1956, there were over 140,000 Red Stars given for long service in THAT Ukaz.

This is why it is always VITAL to ask for FULL research.

As we build up our reserached awards data base (and YOUR serial numbers with dates will help very much in that group effort! ) it will be possible to make informed guesses IN ADVANCE about whether an anonymous Order WAS given for long service or for a specific action, BEFORE asking for research.

There is nothing "wrong" with long service awards-- indeed, I take those as GOOD signs that an OFFICER actually HAD a career that CAN be researched through his Awards Record Card and personnel file.

[NavyFCO]

Technically, that IS the citation. For many post-war long service awards (like yours) no citations were ever written - or were at least kept. The officers were simply submitted for the award based on their length of service, the awards were made by Ukaz of the Supreme Soviet. The reason the awards were given is the top paragraph on the document that states something to the effect of "These awards are given for long and irreproachable service to the Armed Forces of the USSR" (or thereabouts) For many awards, this is all that you'll ever get on them. I've seen these documents come back for both long service awards, as well as high-end awards, such as orders of Suvorov 1st Class and so on, where I personally don't think citations ever existed.

Dave

[rboomsma]

Thanks Dave and Rick.

I have never had research done before so all these docs I got were confusining. And My wife who is Russian had some difficulty translating completely for me. As her command to translate to English is not the best.

I will be posting the info on these two Soldiers that I got with the dates of there awrds, one got many high awards.

I know getting and asking for all info is best, but I had asked for 10 awrds to be researched to various degrees, and money becomes a cost factor.

Technically, that IS the citation. For many post-war long service awards (like yours) no citations were ever written - or were at least kept. The officers were simply submitted for the award based on their length of service, the awards were made by Ukaz of the Supreme Soviet. The reason the awards were given is the top paragraph on the document that states something to the effect of "These awards are given for long and irreproachable service to the Armed Forces of the USSR" (or thereabouts) For many awards, this is all that you'll ever get on them. I've seen these documents come back for both long service awards, as well as high-end awards, such as orders of Suvorov 1st Class and so on, where I personally don't think citations ever existed.

Dave

[NavyFCO]

Here's one for the Suvorov 1st and 2nd Class. Unfortunately, this was all that was there (including a search of the classified files) - no citation, no nothing else - so the details of the reason for the award is forever lost....

Dave

[rboomsma]

This is his award card have not translated yet. I have asked for his personnal file now.

As you will see he got some nice awrads, Asked also now for the citation for his Kuztov 2nd class and Nevsky. I suspect he has some interesting facts in his file.

[Mondvor]

This is his award card have not translated yet. I have asked for his personnal file now.

As you will see he got some nice awrads, Asked also now for the citation for his Kuztov 2nd class and Nevsky. I suspect he has some interesting facts in his file.

Name: Kaminskij Nikolaj Ignatievich

Military Rank: Colonel

Sex: Male

Born: 1906

Place of birth: City of Minsk

Party membership: Communist Party Member since August 1940

Education: School of Working Youth (Shkola Rabochej Molodezhi)

Nationality: Russian

In Red Army: since 1927

Position at the time of receiving award: Commander of 49th Anti-Aircraft Artillery Division

Position at the present: Commander of 65th Anti-Aircraft Artillery Division of Supreme Command Reserve

Home address: Leningrad, Litejnij district 50, appartment 18.

The text on the second page is too small to translate, sorry

[rboomsma]

Many thanks for translating that.

[Guest Rick Research]

Note that in the Soviet artillery "Division" does NOT mean division--it is the Soviet designation for what was in German an "Abteilung," and = BATTALION. Part of a regiment, not the higher body, also called a division.

You really need to get a scanner. An EPSON scanner, which is the easiest to use, best controls, and works on both flat and three dimensional items. Do NOT buy anything else, just beause it is 10 dollars cheaper or on sale that weekend. NO OTHER scanners are as easy to use or as versatile. You will USE your scanner for years. As I keep telling everyone who ignores this advice and is then stuck with a piece of junk which cannot do what they need it for--

anything else is NOT a "bargain"-- that is just penny wise and pound foolish money wasted on anything else.

Side 2 of the Awards Record Card, which was filled out on 9 April 1947:

O Lenin 198,679 per 20,4,53 (long service 25 years)

ORB 23147 (4.12.41???? just can't read dates and Ukaz sources from this camera shot)

ORB "2" 2858 (? 15.4.43)

Kutuzov 2nd 438 28.9.43

Aleksandr Nevsky 7398 (? 15.7.44)

ORS 901,731 3.11.44 (long service 15-19 years 1st bestowals of these)

ORB "3" 1539 (? 31.5.45)

Defense of Moscow, Victory Over Germany, Capture of K?nigsberg Medals

Polish Order of Virtuti Militari 5th Class (? date)

Polish Oder, Neisse, Baltic Medal (? date)

ORB "4" 387 6.11.47 (long service 20 years)

This is an absolutely mind boggling array of awards for an anti-aircraft officer-- he must have had an EXTREMELY successful unit in horrific combat.

[rboomsma]

Many thanks, I better start using my scanner.

I have asked for his personal record should be interesting.

Note that in the Soviet artillery "Division" does NOT mean division--it is the Soviet designation for what was in German an "Abteilung," and = BATTALION. Part of a regiment, not the higher body, also called a division.

You really need to get a scanner. An EPSON scanner, which is the easiest to use, best controls, and works on both flat and three dimensional items. Do NOT buy anything else, just beause it is 10 dollars cheaper or on sale that weekend. NO OTHER scanners are as easy to use or as versatile. You will USE your scanner for years. As I keep telling everyone who ignores this advice and is then stuck with a piece of junk which cannot do what they need it for--

anything else is NOT a "bargain"-- that is just penny wise and pound foolish money wasted on anything else.

Side 2 of the Awards Record Card, which was filled out on 9 April 1947:

O Lenin 198,679 per 20,4,53 (long service 25 years)

ORB 23147 (4.12.41???? just can't read dates and Ukaz sources from this camera shot)

ORB "2" 2858 (? 15.4.43)

Kutuzov 2nd 438 28.9.43

Aleksandr Nevsky 7398 (? 15.7.44)

ORS 901,731 3.11.44 (long service 15-19 years 1st bestowals of these)

ORB "3" 1539 (? 31.5.45)

Defense of Moscow, Victory Over Germany, Capture of K?nigsberg Medals

Polish Order of Virtuti Militari 5th Class (? date)

Polish Oder, Neisse, Baltic Medal (? date)

ORB "4" 387 6.11.47 (long service 20 years)

This is an absolutely mind boggling array of awards for an anti-aircraft officer-- he must have had an EXTREMELY successful unit in horrific combat.

[Guest Rick Research]

Yup! You haven't shown us the page of his 1953 Lenin Ukaz, which at least reveals what his rank was then. He was a full colonel by 1947 (Awards Record Card) so, had he been promoted to Major General?

[rboomsma]

I don't have the ukaz for the lenin just the red banner #4 he is listed as numer #116 and he was still colonel.

I assume his personel record when I get in will reveal how he finished his career.

Yup! You haven't shown us the page of his 1953 Lenin Ukaz, which at least reveals what his rank was then. He was a full colonel by 1947 (Awards Record Card) so, had he been promoted to Major General?

[Mondvor]

Note that in the Soviet artillery "Division" does NOT mean division--it is the Soviet designation for what was in German an "Abteilung," and = BATTALION. Part of a regiment, not the higher body, also called a division.

Rick, what you did describe above is DIVIZION (in Russian spelling). But Kaninskij was a commander ov DIVIZIYA - much bigger unit than DIVIZION. Unfortunately both Russian words have same translation on English - DIVISION.

Artillery DIVIZIYA includes three artillery regiments (early period of war) or three artillery brigades (late period of war). The commander of artillery DIVIZIYA normaly has a rank of Colonel or Major-General of artillery troops. Total number of artillery guns in DIVIZIYA was around 70.

Artillery DIVIZION included three artillery batteries and the commander was normally at the rank of Captain or Major. Total number of artillery guns in DIVIZION was around 16.

So in our case it was big unit - DIVIZIYA. BTW 49th artillery divizion participated in the liberation of Russian city of Smolensk in 1943 and was given a honorary title "Smolenskaya".

Edited May 13, 2006 by MONDVOR

[Guest Rick Research]

I thought it was odd not to see "Independent" in front of the (if it was a Battalion ) number, since we seem to find those with 2 numbers, in Regiments with 4 numbers (1205th AAA Regiment etc).

I did not realize that there WERE German-style Soviet "Flak" divisions!

[Mondvor]

I thought it was odd not to see "Independent" in front of the (if it was a Battalion ) number, since we seem to find those with 2 numbers, in Regiments with 4 numbers (1205th AAA Regiment etc).

I did not realize that there WERE German-style Soviet "Flak" divisions!

First Anti-Aircraft Artillery Division were created on March 1943. In according with regulations (official papers) each AA Division should provide a cover on the areal surface of 63 square kilometers (9 km in front line and 7 km behind the front line). Density is 1,5 AA gun for a square kilometer or 9 AA guns for 1 km of frontline.

For example during The Battle of Kursk the troops of Central Front covered by 5 AA Flak Divisions and 10 Independent AA Flak Regiments. One AA Flak division was attached to Field or Tank Army. For example 6th Tank Army in Yass-Kishinev Operation was covered by 1 AA Flak division and 3 Independent AA Flak Regiments.

The number of guns in each AA Division changed during the war. At 1943 there were 64 AA guns per division, but since 1944 the number increased to 88 AA guns per division.

6 out of dozens AA Divisions received the Guard's title during the war and changed their numbers (from 1st to 6th Anti-Aircraft Guards Artillery Divisions).

Besides AA Artillery Divisions in Red Army were Regular Artillery Divisions, Breakthrough Artillery Divisions (huge caliber guns for crushing enemy defence lines), Anti-Tank Artillery Divisions, Heavy-Mortar Guard Divisions (4 of them) and others...

By the end of the war in Red Army were about 10000 AA guns, so total number of AA divisions should be close to 80 (excluding independent AA Regiments an DIVIZIONS that were not a part of AA Division). Each AA Division normally covered the troops of Field or Tank Army. In Red Army were 70 Field Armies, 11 Guard Armies, 5 Shock (or Strike) Armies, 6 Tank Armies... So if we combine them all together than it was almost 80 AA Divisions. The highest number I've seen so far was 69th AA Division of 3rd Guards Army.

[Gerd Becker]

Great info, Andrew.

I have a question, which is a little of topic, but though: Could Artillery Pieces or Tanks or Planes be decorated? Or did they receive a special honor or threatment, when they were successfull?

[Mondvor]

Great info, Andrew.

I have a question, which is a little of topic, but though: Could Artillery Pieces or Tanks or Planes be decorated? Or did they receive a special honor or threatment, when they were successfull?

Single artillery pieced or single tanks (planes) could not receive any individual awards or titles. The smallest unit that could be decorated is independent battalion.

Only one exception was in NAVY. In Red Army Fleet single ships or submarines were awarded with orders (most often Order of Red Banner).

[Gerd Becker]

Thank you

[rboomsma]

Note that in the Soviet artillery "Division" does NOT mean division--it is the Soviet designation for what was in German an "Abteilung," and = BATTALION. Part of a regiment, not the higher body, also called a division.

You really need to get a scanner. An EPSON scanner, which is the easiest to use, best controls, and works on both flat and three dimensional items. Do NOT buy anything else, just beause it is 10 dollars cheaper or on sale that weekend. NO OTHER scanners are as easy to use or as versatile. You will USE your scanner for years. As I keep telling everyone who ignores this advice and is then stuck with a piece of junk which cannot do what they need it for--

anything else is NOT a "bargain"-- that is just penny wise and pound foolish money wasted on anything else.

Side 2 of the Awards Record Card, which was filled out on 9 April 1947:

O Lenin 198,679 per 20,4,53 (long service 25 years)

ORB 23147 (4.12.41???? just can't read dates and Ukaz sources from this camera shot)

ORB "2" 2858 (? 15.4.43)

Kutuzov 2nd 438 28.9.43

Aleksandr Nevsky 7398 (? 15.7.44)

ORS 901,731 3.11.44 (long service 15-19 years 1st bestowals of these)

ORB "3" 1539 (? 31.5.45)

Defense of Moscow, Victory Over Germany, Capture of K?nigsberg Medals

Polish Order of Virtuti Militari 5th Class (? date)

Polish Oder, Neisse, Baltic Medal (? date)

ORB "4" 287 6.11.47 (long service 20 years)

This is an absolutely mind boggling array of awards for an anti-aircraft officer-- he must have had an EXTREMELY successful unit in horrific combat.

Well I got his service record and personal file. Here is what he looked like and he is wearing my red banner #4. You can see he removed the suspension to match the other 3 red banners. So he was the one who converted it. So I will not try now to convert it back to a suspension and just leave it as is.

Edited August 14, 2006 by rboomsma

[Guest Rick Research]

What a naughty General!!!!

[rboomsma]

What a naughty General!!!!

Interesting that he went against Stalins change of orders for 1945 and kept his red banners as screwbacks and actually changed his number 4 to screwback.

His file says he retired as a General major. He also was in the Finnish war.

His file also says he went against some order on the front, and he ended up being right so he was not purged for going against orders.

Edited August 15, 2006 by rboomsma