Help deciphering EK2 Certificate

[Rich]

I recently acquired this certificate - excuse the photo quality but it is under glass in a very old, sealed frame.

 

Awarded to a member of the 20 Landwehr Division in September 1917. A bit of googling suggests this was when the unit was on the Western Front.

 

If someone could verify the handwritten information I would appreciate it, as I am not certain of the rank etc. preceding the name. I read the name as "Christian Theodor Albert Muller" of 3 company Landwehr Infantry Regiment 387. Is his first name Albert, as that is underlined? I'm not familiar with the protocols

 

Also, from which part of Germany was this regiment raised, and are there any research possibilities? I'd also be interested in knowing whether he survived the war.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Richard

Edited September 8, 2023 by Rich
error

[bolewts58]

He was a "Gefreiten" , effectively a Lance Corporal. Yes, it's likely that he went by Albert as his first name.

 

You might be able to find out about the Landwehr Inf. Regt. 387 in this period reference in the Cornell U. Library now converted to an online pdf.

 

HISTORIES OF TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY- ONE DIVISIONS OF THE GERMAN ARMY WHICH PARTICIPATED IN THE WAR (1914-1918)

compiled from records of Intelligence section of the General Staff, American Expeditionary Forces, at General Headquarters, Chaumont, France 1919 (1920)

 

https://ia800205.us.archive.org/3/items/cu31924027835317/cu31924027835317.pdf

Edited September 9, 2023 by bolewts58

[GreyC]

The Regiment was raised by Stellvertretendes  Generalkommando of X. AK, replacements came from Ers. Btl. LwIR 78. So chances are he came from lower Saxony, around Brunswig or Celle. But with a name like his, its like a needle in a haystack.

GreyC

[Rich]

Thank  you both very much. I've always liked German documents, but sometimes the script defeats me, as does the research potential. Thanks also for the link -an amazing find.

 

Richard 

[Rich]

I had a quick google and one potential candidate could be the following, temptingly similar and no others seem to fit as well.

 

A marriage in 1894 might also fit with Landwehr service in WW1 due to age?

 

Big problem is that surname is listed as MOLLER, not Muller, and the original marriage documents seem to have an O and not a U. (Of course, it is possible that the EK2 document has him incorrectly/interchangeably listed as MULLER?)

 

Not enough to stand up in court, but I'd appreciate any thoughts.

[bolewts58]

5 minutes ago, Rich said:

I had a quick google and one potential candidate could be the following, temptingly similar and no others seem to fit as well.

 

A marriage in 1894 might also fit with Landwehr service in WW1 due to age?

 

Big problem is that surname is listed as MOLLER, not Muller, and the original marriage documents seem to have an O and not a U. (Of course, it is possible that the EK2 document has him incorrectly/interchangeably listed as MULLER?)

 

Not enough to stand up in court, but I'd appreciate any thoughts.

 

I agree with you that this is him. If the bottom document hand-written in ink was written by Müller, it's possible that the narrow ö is actually a sloppy ü and was copied wrong on the type-written doc. There's a little blip at the top of it as if the pen slipped. if you compare to the 2 "o"s inTheodor, you'll notice they're open at the top as was typical of the way Germans would write them in cursive. So, I think that his name was actually Müller not Möller.

[Rich]

Thanks again for having a look - I agree, the O does look like it was due to the ink - and if the transcription on Family Search is as haphazard as Ancestry then I doubt they'd have spent much time looking before typing it onto the database - one of my British medals belongs to a "Defective Constable" instead of Detective Constable on the 1939 Register according to Ancestry...

At least it gives me a point to dig deeper to see if I can find any more. I'm assuming the WW1 service papers are all gone, following 1945? 

Richard

[bolewts58]

The document is also signed in ink by a Generalmajor und Kommandeur. I think his name was Richter. I assume he was the commander of Landwehr Division 20.

Edited September 9, 2023 by bolewts58

[GreyC]

17 minutes ago, bolewts58 said:

I think his name was Richter

Not quite, I am afraid. His name is/was (Karl) Becker

GreyC

[bolewts58]

4 hours ago, GreyC said:

Not quite, I am afraid. His name is/was (Karl) Becker

GreyC

Oh, ya. i see "Becker" now. The signature is a bit faded. When I darkened it in Photoshop, I could see it more clearly.

 

Do you have a link for Generalmajor Karl Becker? I was looking, but couldn't find any.

[Rich]

I never thought to ask about the signature at the bottom as it seemed so faded. Now you have said it, I can make out a 'Becker'. Thanks again.

 

 

 

Only fly in the ointment is I looked a bit more into the Albert C T Muller of Stralsund who married in 1894 and it shows him as being born in 1848... bit too long in the tooth for WW1 it seems. Cannot find a son or anyone else of that name though. Back to the drawing board...

  

If you belong to the free family Search site, this is the entry https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6FT5-PSF3 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Rich

[GreyC]

19 hours ago, bolewts58 said:

 

Do you have a link for Generalmajor Karl Becker? I was looking, but couldn't find any.

I am afraid, I don´t. He was reactivated for service in the war, having held comand of 59 Inf Brigade before the war and finishing the war as  Kdr of Stellvertetendes Brigade Kdo 49. He died 1st Jan. 1924.

GreyC

Edited September 10, 2023 by GreyC

[Rich]

I also have a second Iron Cross certificate and I'd be grateful if you could help fill in the gaps.

 

 

I can read the recipient as (I think)  August Potthast of the  "Ober-Elsässisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 172" 

(3rd (Upper Alsatian) 172 Infantry Regiment), born 16 June 1894. Cannot read where.

 

I googled this regiment and it seems to have been signed by a Lt Col Kurt Panse.

 

 

Again, if someone could help fill in the gaps and give me a translation if would be much appreciated. Also, is it possible to easily search a database to find out if this man survived the war?

 

Thanks

Richard

 

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Rich

[GreyC]

Vorläufiger Ausweis

Der musketier August Potthast von der 3. mg Kompanie des 3.Ober-Elsässisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 172, geboren am 16. Juni 1894 zu Lemgo, Kreis Lemgo, Lippe Detmold, ist am 22. September 1916 das EKII verliehen worden. Ein Besitzzeugnis wird später zugestellt werden.

 

GreyC

Edited September 12, 2023 by GreyC

[Rich]

Thank you once again for your help - that handwriting always baffles me!  How Interesting - just an 'in the field' note to state he has been awarded the Iron Cross and will later on received the formal certificate.

 

Richard

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Rich

[bolewts58]

15 hours ago, Rich said:

that handwriting always baffles me!

 

Richard

 

The hand writing is called "Kurrentschrift". If you want to take a stab at deciphering it in the future, you can use the link below for reference. It may not totally help as in any handwriting, there's personal interpretation. But, all Germans learned this in school. So, especially on documents the quality and accuracy of the handwriting usually follows the rules.

 

http://www.kurrentschrift.net/index.php?s=alphabet

 

[Rich]

Thanks very much for the link, very useful I think - my handwriting is pretty untidy so I think I'll have a head start. Much obliged.