Marked Kriegsmedaille

[Carlo]

Good evening everyone,
with this topic I wanted to share with you this kriegsmedaille which is marked with a small Z at 6 o'clock on the back.

Does anyone know if it is indicative of any manufacturer?
I immediately thought of Zimbler, but I have another marked J.Z. and it's different, so I don't think it's the same manufacturer.

[Farkas]

3 hours ago, Carlo said:

Good evening everyone,
with this topic I wanted to share with you this kriegsmedaille which is marked with a small Z at 6 o'clock on the back.

Does anyone know if it is indicative of any manufacturer?
I immediately thought of Zimbler, but I have another marked J.Z. and it's different, so I don't think it's the same manufacturer.

hi Carlo,

I’ve got two of these, the same design with the C not the Z, and neither has the mark yours has.

nor any mark (maker or otherwise) on the rim or elsewhere that I can see…

 

 

One thing I wondered is whether it could be the number 2 ?
Obviously the photos never do the details justice so it may well be clear to you that it isn’t 👍 but you know me, I like to mention my random unlikely thoughts 😊

whether a Z or 2 it’s clear there is an intentional difference to the actual design of your medal (to that of mine for example), rather than a stamp or punch mark added post production such as those we find on the rim.

 

If I only had your example here to go from, or if they all had it…  I would be tempted to say it was the artist/designers  mark or initial… however I would then expect, most likely, two initials 🤷‍♂️
 

An interesting find, well spotted.

 

tony  🍻

 

 

[Carlo]

45 minutes ago, Farkas said:

hi Carlo,

I’ve got two of these, the same design with the C not the Z, and neither has the mark yours has.

nor any mark (maker or otherwise) on the rim or elsewhere that I can see…

 

 

One thing I wondered is whether it could be the number 2 ?
Obviously the photos never do the details justice so it may well be clear to you that it isn’t 👍 but you know me, I like to mention my random unlikely thoughts 😊

whether a Z or 2 it’s clear there is an intentional difference to the actual design of your medal (to that of mine for example), rather than a stamp or punch mark added post production such as those we find on the rim.

 

If I only had your example here to go from, or if they all had it…  I would be tempted to say it was the artist/designers  mark or initial… however I would then expect, most likely, two initials 🤷‍♂️
 

An interesting find, well spotted.

 

tony  🍻

 

 

You're right, the photos aren't the best, but you should see better from this one.

Another detail that I noticed is that in the second pair of acorns starting from the bottom there is not one on each side, but one on the left and two on the right, something that I only found in this specimen.

I have to verify who the engraver of the decoration was, I don't remember his name at the moment, but it certainly could be.

[Farkas]

On 10/11/2023 at 20:55, Carlo said:

You're right, the photos aren't the best, but you should see better from this one.

Another detail that I noticed is that in the second pair of acorns starting from the bottom there is not one on each side, but one on the left and two on the right, something that I only found in this specimen.

I have to verify who the engraver of the decoration was, I don't remember his name at the moment, but it certainly could be.

Most definitely a Z 👍

 

I’ve found this article, I don’t know which language it is in but I think it’s safe to guess the meaning of the relevant bit,

the reverse is by : Johann Pfeiffer

so the Z almost certainly isn’t for him.

 

tony 🍻

 

 

PS

I think I just realised the reason for both anomalies ! 👇

 

There are many variations of this medal, both sides, but I don’t think they are intentional.

I think the stamp/dye got worn and was re-etched but the worn down design remaining was interpreted and repaired slightly differently over time…

 

On the reverse. In all of them the leaves or acorns are in the same ‘footprint’, they overlay each other.

 

So… The Z is actually an incorrect interpretation of the edge of the ribbon on the original.

 

& I think the acorns were originally in pairs so one of the 3 acorns on yours should be a leaf.

 

I noticed mine 👇 coincidentally has a similar upper unusual acorn but is missing the lower outside one, it’s been turned into a leaf.

Yours 👇

 

These are a few others below.

This first one particularly you can see different it is, in my opinion a worn dye.

 

tony 🍻

[Carlo]

On 12/11/2023 at 19:59, Farkas said:

Most definitely a Z 👍

 

I’ve found this article, I don’t know which language it is in but I think it’s safe to guess the meaning of the relevant bit,

the reverse is by : Johann Pfeiffer

so the Z almost certainly isn’t for him.

 

tony 🍻

 

 

PS

I think I just realised the reason for both anomalies ! 👇

 

There are many variations of this medal, both sides, but I don’t think they are intentional.

I think the stamp/dye got worn and was re-etched but the worn down design remaining was interpreted and repaired slightly differently over time…

 

On the reverse. In all of them the leaves or acorns are in the same ‘footprint’, they overlay each other.

 

So… The Z is actually an incorrect interpretation of the edge of the ribbon on the original.

 

& I think the acorns were originally in pairs so one of the 3 acorns on yours should be a leaf.

 

I noticed mine 👇 coincidentally has a similar upper unusual acorn but is missing the lower outside one, it’s been turned into a leaf.

Yours 👇

 

These are a few others below.

This first one particularly you can see different it is, in my opinion a worn dye.

 

tony 🍻

Great research, but I don't think it's a worn die, but a different style of engraving.

But looking at yours I noticed that mine has more acorns, I count 12, while in yours and in my others I only count 8.
Notice the tops of the leaves on the right side.

 

 

[tifes]

Hi,

 

No one knows the exact number of how many of KM 1873 medals were made, but rough estimates says around 2.5 million pieces till 1918. That's a huge number, and there were probably dozens of makers. They were produced in different variations, metals, variants. From a phaleristic point of view, the "KOENIG" and "DEZEMBER" variants are more popular (and thus more expensive), as are special finishes, e.g. in silver or with enameled or galalith (a form of early plastic) reverse. I don't know weather you will ever be able to decipher the letter "Z" on your medal and also in my opinion it is not even important how many leaves are in the wreath. What is important is to have KM 1873 in good condition and on the original ribbon in your collection, as it is one of the most iconic medals of old Austria. 

 

Some pics with examples of "Koenig", "Dezember" and Galalith reverse in the post.    

 

Regards,

 

Tifes (Tomas)