Tunic for Scots Guards Victorian Age - Question about buttons and tailor label

[diwe]

I usually collect uniforms from Southeast Asia, mainly Thai, but decided to add two tunics of the Foot Guards to my collection as they heavily influenced the creating Thai uniforms during the Victorian age. One of my tunics displays for the Scots Guards displays buttons on the front, rear, and shouder boards that were worn during the reign of Queen Victoria with the distinctive QV crown. (1) However, the buttons on the cuffs are a different style (Edward VII) (IMG 1028 and 1030)? I consulted Howard Riply's Buttons of the British Army but am still trying to identify the crown. I assume that this officer served during the reign of Queen Victoria and then Edward VII. Please correct me if I am wrong but I read hat the officers were allowed to continue to wear the buttons with the crown or cypher of the previous monarch but when they needed replacement they had to replace the entire set. So this is an interesting combination. (2) My second question is about the tailor label the uniform sports. Is there a way via a chemical process to make it visible again? Thanks so much! 

 

Edited February 10 by diwe
Picture format

[Gordon Craig]

diwe,

Interesting uniform and questions.  Makers labels often have the name of the individual defaces somehow and I have never been able to find a satisfactory method of uncovering the information that I wanted.  Perhaps if you posted pictures of the label someone would be able to offer some solutions to you and the rest of us.

Regards,

Gordon

 

[Farkas]

19 hours ago, diwe said:

I usually collect uniforms from Southeast Asia, mainly Thai, but decided to add two tunics of the Foot Guards to my collection as they heavily influenced the creating Thai uniforms during the Victorian age. One of my tunics displays for the Scots Guards displays buttons on the front, rear, and shouder boards that were worn during the reign of Queen Victoria with the distinctive QV crown. (1) However, the buttons on the cuffs are a different style (Edward VII) (IMG 1028 and 1030)? I consulted Howard Riply's Buttons of the British Army but am still trying to identify the crown. I assume that this officer served during the reign of Queen Victoria and then Edward VII. Please correct me if I am wrong but I read hat the officers were allowed to continue to wear the buttons with the crown or cypher of the previous monarch but when they needed replacement they had to replace the entire set. So this is an interesting combination. (2) My second question is about the tailor label the uniform sports. Is there a way via a chemical process to make it visible again? Thanks so much! 

 

I think I can explain some of it… 🤞

 

I’ve got two Royal Artillery tunics, one 1900-1905 and the other an older Victorian tunic.  The following is based on RA regs but seem to explain your tunic, which is very nice btw.

 

In 1881 and 1891 the officers tunic was changed. The red piping was changed and in 1891 all piping on the skirt/ bottom edge was discarded

In 1881 the corners of the collar were rounded and in 1891 the corner of the skirt at the bottom of the buttons was squared. 
Rank insignia moved around too, collar, shoulder and sleeve lace all were used. Just to say again, this is all RA, the guards would have had their own variations.

 

However… back to your tunic 😊

 

In 1891, the rear of officers tunics changed. Instead of a single button on either side, the was the addition of the ‘decorative’ pocket flaps. This was a significant change.

Braiding and and 3 additional buttons on either side.

 

Looking at yours, it appears the rear panel with the pockets/buttons is an alteration.I would say done to conform with the new regs and assuming it’s period then done in 1891. I don’t see why a modern day owner would change a pre ‘91 tunic to look like a newer one 👍

 

That then explains the buttons too.

They have taken the 6 buttons from the cuffs to use on the tail, 

So, as the buttons on the cuffs then needed replacements, presumably in 1891, I reckon they might well be theatre made. i’ve several Indian made buttons with random looking crowns. 

These are period QVC buttons made in India 👇

 

 

Can you see anything on the buttons back to confirm or disprove this? 🤞

 

tony 🍻

[diwe]

Tony: Thanks so much for the reply. I was trying to look at the back of the buttons and all six were made by Pitt & Co. 31 Maddox St, London W according to the incription (sorry for the bad photos)  

[Farkas]

You’re welcome 🍻

 

The Pitt buttons are post 1895, that is when they moved to Maddox Street.

 

I’d agree with your initial feeling that this is a Victorian/Edwardian worn tunic.

As you said yourself, when uniforms changed the officers had some leeway, they purchased their own uniforms.

 

👇 (I admit I have a lively imagination..,)

I’d say this man wore his Victorian style as long as he could before the alterations were done (maybe reluctantly) post 1902.

Perhaps he had a role to play in the coronation even… 

The new King Edward vii was to have a crown usually shown a slightly different shape to the later George crowns but in 1902/3 if commissioned to make some KC buttons I can imagine Pitt&Co would not have an official design to follow as yet. The entire look of the 6 buttons is ‘ropey’ as, I was surprised that they were from a reputable maker at all…

But who knows eh 🤷‍♂️

(😁 I did say I have an imagination 😁)

 

tony 🍻

 

pS QVC Buttons…

If you can tell me what is on the reverse of the Victorian buttons I can maybe narrow down the date a bit more.

 

 

[diwe]

Tony: This is an interesting and plausible explanation. The QVC buttons on the tunic have the same maker Pitt & Co. So this would make the tunic post 1895 I assume. Best Dirkb

IMG_1104.HEIC

10 hours ago, Gordon Craig said:

diwe,

Interesting uniform and questions.  Makers labels often have the name of the individual defaces somehow and I have never been able to find a satisfactory method of uncovering the information that I wanted.  Perhaps if you posted pictures of the label someone would be able to offer some solutions to you and the rest of us.

Regards,

Gordon

 

Hi Gordon, enclosed please find a picture of the label or better what is left.... Best Dirk

[Gordon Craig]

diwe,

Thanks for the picture.  Not much can be done with the label in your picture.  What was on the label might have been hand written and erased with wear and time.  I don't have any suggestions that might be of help to you.  Sorry about that.

Regards,

Gordon

[diwe]

As the tunic came without rank insignia I think I was able to find some matching rank insignia. It was not easy....

[Farkas]

Nice job finding the crowns 👍👍

 

Kashket is the usual name on Guards tunics from 20thCentury, so I’ve had a good look to see if a particular tailor was noticeable as responsible for Guards Officers tunics back then and it appears not. 

It may be some consolation to know that probably there was no makers name on the label. It isn’t stitched, so it’s unlikely.

I seem to recall it was another 10 or 20 years before stitched labels were used but I may have that wrong, that may not be the case.

 

 

I have an Oxfordshire Light Infantry tunic (not guards) from the 1890’s that also has a ‘plain’ label,

- it merely has ‘ No.’ printed on it.

It’s purpose was only to record the order number and name of the customer.

 

 

tony 🍻

[diwe]

On 25/02/2024 at 08:47, Farkas said:

Nice job finding the crowns 👍👍

 

Kashket is the usual name on Guards tunics from 20thCentury, so I’ve had a good look to see if a particular tailor was noticeable as responsible for Guards Officers tunics back then and it appears not. 

It may be some consolation to know that probably there was no makers name on the label. It isn’t stitched, so it’s unlikely.

I seem to recall it was another 10 or 20 years before stitched labels were used but I may have that wrong, that may not be the case.

 

 

I have an Oxfordshire Light Infantry tunic (not guards) from the 1890’s that also has a ‘plain’ label,

- it merely has ‘ No.’ printed on it.

It’s purpose was only to record the order number and name of the customer.

 

 

tony 🍻

Hi Tony, this is a beautiful tunic. I assume they used ink to add the name of the owned and sadly that is fading quickly. 

[Farkas]

16 hours ago, diwe said:

Hi Tony, this is a beautiful tunic. I assume they used ink to add the name of the owned and sadly that is fading quickly. 

Thanks diwe. 👍

 

I got it recently but I had been aware of it for a little while. I already had 2 out of 3 I was aware of, that belonged to the same man and then it came up for sale, I recognised it and snaffled it up!

 

 

I am/was the only person in the world who knew who it belongs to…

 

This is the label on one of the other ones👇

 

and I have this 👇

 

Captain A W M Ponsonby.

 

I was over the moon and so it’s history is safe now.

 

tony 🍻

 

[Graf]

On 01/03/2024 at 06:53, Farkas said:

Thanks diwe. 👍

 

I got it recently but I had been aware of it for a little while. I already had 2 out of 3 I was aware of, that belonged to the same man and then it came up for sale, I recognised it and snaffled it up!

 

 

I am/was the only person in the world who knew who it belongs to…

 

This is the label on one of the other ones👇

 

and I have this 👇

 

Captain A W M Ponsonby.

 

I was over the moon and so it’s history is safe now.

 

tony 🍻

 

Very nice Tony

[Farkas]

7 hours ago, Graf said:

Very nice Tony

cheers Graf,

I love any excuse to post pictures of my stash!

 

tony 🍻