Swiss Gold Francs?

[bigjarofwasps]

I started a thread on another site (coin related, so please forgive me), but I thought the answer I got was worth drawing to the attention of patrons to our beloved GMIF!!!!

Basically I asked......

Hi Guys,

Just a thought, but I wonder if these coins were minted from Nazi Gold?

Anyone got any thoughts?

(refering to Swiss Gold Francs.)

I got this reply!!!!

There was a programme on the telee about higher traces of mercury being detected in the 1935 LB and 1947 coins. However I have not seen any real determinate substantion of that.

The significance of higher traces of mercury would indicate that perhaps the gold had been smelted from dental fillings.

Can anyone shine any more light on this allegation!!!

[coastie]

I started a thread on another site (coin related, so please forgive me), but I thought the answer I got was worth drawing to the attention of patrons to our beloved GMIF!!!!

Basically I asked......

Hi Guys,

Just a thought, but I wonder if these coins were minted from Nazi Gold?

Anyone got any thoughts?

(refering to Swiss Gold Francs.)

I got this reply!!!!

There was a programme on the telee about higher traces of mercury being detected in the 1935 LB and 1947 coins. However I have not seen any real determinate substantion of that.

The significance of higher traces of mercury would indicate that perhaps the gold had been smelted from dental fillings.

Can anyone shine any more light on this allegation!!!

May or may not have merit. Mercury is used as an amalgam in the mining process. If you are mining gold from a river you coat mercury on a copper sheet and the flecks of gold adhere to it as you run it through a sluice box, also I think the same process is used when mining for crused ores. Then you use cyanide in the refining process. Bottom line is mercury is an important part of gold processing so I would take much stock in it. I don't know that mercury is used with gold in gold fillings but wouldn't be used in crowns because gold crowns are cast and glued in place.

Edited June 1, 2006 by coastie

[Kev in Deva]

May or may not have merit. Mercury is used as an amalgam in the mining process. If you are mining gold from a river you coat mercury on a copper sheet and the flecks of gold adhere to it as you run it through a sluice box, also I think the same process is used when mining for crused ores. Then you use cyanide in the refining process. Bottom line is mercury is an important part of gold processing so I would take much stock in it. I don't know that mercury is used with gold in gold fillings but wouldn't be used in crowns because gold crowns are cast and glued in place.

Hallo Coastie

Any mecury used in (as highlighted in red) would be burnt off in the smelting process surely

Kevin in Deva

[bigjarofwasps]

The plot thickens!!!!!!

[bigjarofwasps]

Have you seen this?

'Gold teeth stolen while owner slept'

A Florida man claims someone reached into his mouth and stole his gold teeth as he slept.

Bryan Osteen, of Mims, Brevard Country, rang police to complain about the theft, reports Local6.com News.

Osteen told officers that someone entered his bedroom and took the ?40 teeth out of his mouth.

He said he had friends at his home and believes one of them had something to do with the crime.

Osteen said he did not wake up because he is a heavy sleeper, according to a Brevard County Sheriff's Office report.

[peter monahan]

bigjar

I believe, on no other evidence than my memory of something read a decade ago, that the rumour originally ran something like this:

"We know that the Nazis took gold teeth and fillings from camp inmates before murdering them.

We know that some Nazis stashed gold, currency, art wroks, etc. in Swiss banks, on the off chance that the Thousand Year Reich wasn't.

Ergo it follows that some gold in Swiss banks comes from the mouths of Jews and others murdered in the camps."

The only answer I believe we can or will ever be able to give is "Yeah, maybe. Maybe even 'probably'."

Who, for example, keeps the CSI -like forensic database on the exact 'chemical' (?) make-up of the 100's or 1000's of types of gold bars in the world?

Who got hold of a certifiable "Swiss" gold bar and compared it to the "normal" bars?

Why would gold from teeth even have more mercury in it? (Gold fillings were used instead of mercury)

I believe there is indisputable evidence that some of the wealth in Swiss banks is from Nazi sources and therefore stolen goods. And I don't believe for a minute that the banks are keping it for the originals owners or their heirs. They're just keeping it! (How to get rich: get money any way you can, Don't give it away again.)

From there to "Mercury=teeth. Gold with mercury in = gold from teeth... and so on" is one H*** of a leap. Great TV but poor historical scholarship unless they quoted names, dates, etc.

Peter

[Tiger-pie]

Dental gold is different to ingot gold for starters, it is a softer grade of gold to make it easier to work. Still worth money, but not as much as high carat bullion.

Regards;

Johnsy

[bigjarofwasps]

Dental gold is different to ingot gold for starters, it is a softer grade of gold to make it easier to work. Still worth money, but not as much as high carat bullion.

Regards;

Johnsy

Hi Johnsy, thanks for your reply. Thought this might be of interest?

Carat Fineness, % Gold content, % Comments

24 999 99.9 Three nines

24 990 99.0 Two nines, Minimum allowed

22 916 91.6 Indian subcontinent

21 875 87.5 Arabic countries

(19.2) 800 80.0 Standard in Portugal

18 750 75.0 Standard caratage

14.8 620 62.0 Dental Gold Minimum

14 585 58.5 583/58.3% in USA

10 417 41.7 Minimum in USA

9 375 37.5 U.K. standard

8 333 33.3 Minimum Germany

I think that if the gold was refined and all the other metals taken out, it would then become pure gold, but as to how much dental gold for how much pure gold you`d get by doing this I have no idea, but I imagine that it`d be a lot.

I read somewhere that for every 5 tons of gold ore that is mined in South Africa they get something crazy like 5 gramms of pure gold!!!!

Gordon.

[peter monahan]

I spent 90 minutes in a dental chair yesterday! (Don't even ask ) In the course of whicj I asked my dentist, a Liverpudlian originallly, about the "Swiss teeth". He said, Johnsy, that he'd read that all the gold in the world would only actually make a pile the size of a two story 3000 sq foot house! Most of the gold ever found is used and re-used. Also agreed that nercury has a real affinity for gold but was very skeptical of the Swiss tooth story. For what it's worth

P

[bigjarofwasps]

I spent 90 minutes in a dental chair yesterday! (Don't even ask ) In the course of whicj I asked my dentist, a Liverpudlian originallly, about the "Swiss teeth". He said, Johnsy, that he'd read that all the gold in the world would only actually make a pile the size of a two story 3000 sq foot house! Most of the gold ever found is used and re-used. Also agreed that nercury has a real affinity for gold but was very skeptical of the Swiss tooth story. For what it's worth

P

Cheers P thats really interesting. Hope the dental visit wasn`t to !!! But I was particuarly interested in the world gold reserves two story house, same gold used over and over again fact, which leads me onto this, again a but what do you think of this?

"I`m very curious to see if anyone can shine any light on this for me. Basically what I`d like to know is, whether Krugerrands are minted from recently refined gold, or from gold that has been in vaults for years & years? Is there anyway of knowing? Or is it just the earlier mintages that might fall into this catagary?"

[peter monahan]

Good question! I don't suppose gold "stale dates" but the logical thing would be to use the oldest stock first, no? It would make a difference too whether the gold, especially SA gold, is in the same category as the diamonds: they're sitting on PILES of it and only let out a bit at a time to keep the price up.

(Apparently the world has enopugh diamonds to drop the price to the same as for cubic zirconium if they all hit the street at once)

If the SA mint has piles of the stuff then they could be using old or new or a mix but if production more or less matches output to the market then presumably they use this or last year's gold for this year's Krugerrands. don't know how you'd find out though, I can't imagine they'd tell one!

[bigjarofwasps]

Good question! I don't suppose gold "stale dates" but the logical thing would be to use the oldest stock first, no? It would make a difference too whether the gold, especially SA gold, is in the same category as the diamonds: they're sitting on PILES of it and only let out a bit at a time to keep the price up.

(Apparently the world has enopugh diamonds to drop the price to the same as for cubic zirconium if they all hit the street at once)

If the SA mint has piles of the stuff then they could be using old or new or a mix but if production more or less matches output to the market then presumably they use this or last year's gold for this year's Krugerrands. don't know how you'd find out though, I can't imagine they'd tell one!

I find it really interesting. I suppose it could be down to monetary & non monetary gold, some of it must sit in vaults never to be touched whilst some of it gets made into coins, sold on etc,etc. Like you say I`ve no idea how you`d go about finding out & if they`d tell anyway.

[bigjarofwasps]

I recently watched a documentary, about Nazi gold. During it there was a short piece on Swiss gold francs, being made from gold teeth. They had this dental expert, would confirmed that there is a very high mercury level in Swiss gold francs, higher than in any other gold coin, which would suggest the use of dental gold, to mint them.

[peter monahan]

Big Jar

I thought we flogged this to death back in June!

I'm afraid I'm not very convinced by tv "experts": I know a couple and some are great and others will say whatever's in the script as long as the cheque don't bounce. Much like some notorious "expert witnesses" in the North American legal system.

Peter

[bigjarofwasps]

Found this on another forum....

The Swiss national bank (SNB) minted 20’008’813 gold coins, so called "VRENELI" (not francs) from 1945-1947, using goldbars, which were already in possession of the SNB before 1939.

As a result of the Washington treaties 1946, the Swiss handed out 250 Mio Francs in Gold to the Americans for the "redevelopment of Europe". The allied declared this would satisfy all claims toward the SNB for their gold trades during WWII. According to some sources this gold is still in N.Y., meanwhile the Swiss had to pay again 50 years later.

Now, I`m not convinced with the old resmelt the gold with pre dates gag, didn`t the Nazi`s do this with the Belguim gold in the first place?

Interestingly it also mentions in this documentary that the Swiss would shoot down allied planes that strayied into their airspace, I`d be very interested to know if they did the same in Nazi planes? If this is the case, then this doc, is floored, if they didn`t then this is another case, for the Swiss have a lot to answer for. But then again so do the Spanish or Portuguese!!!!

[mariner]

Big Jar

I thought we flogged this to death back in June!

I'm afraid I'm not very convinced by tv "experts": I know a couple and some are great and others will say whatever's in the script as long as the cheque don't bounce. Much like some notorious "expert witnesses" in the North American legal system.

Peter

Hi Peter,

No disrespect intended, but I think this topic is far from `flogged to death`. Maybe the coins from gold teeth espect might becoming a `cooler` topic of debate, comparted to others on this part of the forum, but I feel that what was suffered during the war, and what part was played by who should never be forgotten!

Now if I may just have one last part of my two pence or should I say two Francs.. Has anyone read this book...

Holocaust Gold: From the Victims to Switzerland

by Raul Teitelbaum & Moshe Sanbar

Amid the severe devastation wrought by the Second World War, the economic implications of the Nazi regime is a subject that has come to light only in recent years. Holocaust Gold by Raul Teitelbaum and Moshe Sanbar is an important and revealing contribution to this growing body of historical research.

Tracing the path of Nazi looting and plunder, Sanbar and Teitelbaum identify and elaborate the complexities of this sensitive issue, and the difficulties in seeking justice half a century later. The lack of German documentation of the gold looted from individuals - combined with a host of contributing factors that include politics and the role of the media - ensures that the issue of Nazi gold be so difficult and painful to reconcile.

The authors explore the role of 'neutral' Switzerland and the systematic effort by Swiss leaders to blur the tracks of the gold that reached the vaults of the Nazi Reichsbank. A detailed chapter features an expose of the little-known Vreneli affair: the minting of Vreneli gold coins on an unprecedented scale, and the sale of these coins to the general public in order to shrink the enormous gold stocks Switzerland amassed during the war.

Holocaust Gold also uncovers several fascinating and telling pieces of information, including the story of Himmler's mistress who was assured a luxurious lifestyle after the war, and how SS officials used gold extracted from the mouths of their victims for their own dental work.

This book is comprehensive and impressive, providing a historical and economic framework in which to contemplate the magnitude of the Nazi looting and the subsequent cover-ups. The authors condemn the Swiss authorities, convincingly contending that the $1.25 billion that the major Swiss commercial banks pledged to the victims of the Holocaust totally disregards the active role the Swiss Central Bank and Swiss government played in this devastating affair. Holocaust Gold is both courageous and insightful, exploring a shameful economic history and policy to which the world has only recently awoken.

[peter monahan]

This sounds like more convincing evidence, if the book is well researched and notated. Have you read it?

I agree that the topic is a serious one and worthy of study. I simply meant that the "t v show" thing had been discussed a fair bit by Big Jar and I in the absence of any real evidence. No offence intended to any.

Peter

Edited January 27, 2007 by peter monahan

[bigjarofwasps]

Hi Guys,

Sorry if I`ve laboured this thread a bit, but I just find it really interesting. The above book certain looks like one I should be reading!!! I`ll have to keep an eye out for a copy.

Gordon.

[Tiger-pie]

I recently watched a documentary, about Nazi gold. During it there was a short piece on Swiss gold francs, being made from gold teeth. They had this dental expert, would confirmed that there is a very high mercury level in Swiss gold francs, higher than in any other gold coin, which would suggest the use of dental gold, to mint them.

Sounds like bull to me. If you smelt gold then the mercury would "evaporate" off, surely. I know that they used to use mercury to give gold a deep lustre, so wouldn't the colour be a give-away?

I will look into it, but as far as I am aware they can tell from trace mineral elements where the gold has originated from i.e. wether it is from Australia or South Africa.

Regards;

Johnsy

[bigjarofwasps]

The more I look inot this, the less inclined I am to believe it. I suppose there will always by the dubious history of where the Swiss got their gold from, whether it be seized Nazi gold, from banks,etc. melted down jewellery or teeth.

I am however curious as to how they can say that the mercury would have all been burnt off, surely for it to be there in the first place it must have been present when they made the teeth? Also if it is so easily dismissed, why does it keep cropping up, in books & documentarys, is there no one out there that can finally put this to bed?

[deptfordboy]

Interestingly it also mentions in this documentary that the Swiss would shoot down allied planes that strayied into their airspace, I`d be very interested to know if they did the same in Nazi planes? If this is the case, then this doc, is floored, if they didn`t then this is another case, for the Swiss have a lot to answer for. But then again so do the Spanish or Portuguese!!!!

Hi BJOW,

There is a lot of misinformation floating around concerning the Swiss and their role in WW2. A good introduction is a book called "Target Switzerland", which outlines the situation the Swiss found themselves in:

Totally surrounded by hostile powers who showed no respect to neutrality and lacking resources, the Swiss played a strategy of armed neutrality devised by General Guisan, their Chief of the Armed Forces. There was no love lost between the Germans and the majority of the Swiss, and several plans were drawn by German High Command to invade. However, through swift mobilisation and the threat to blow up vital communications such as the Gotthard tunnel, the Swiss made themselves a sufficiently 'prickly' target to avoid these plans being put into action.

During the war, the Swiss did not allow incursions into their airspace by either Axis or Allies, and in fact they shot down 11 German aircraft, so whatever documents your programme alluded definitely sound flawed or downright false. The book I mention is a bit of a 'whitewash' on the side of the Swiss, portraying them all as brave freedom-lovers (I am half Swiss and know there were some Nazi sympathisers amongst the German population), but I would equally be suspicious of those who try to demonise them as Hitler's stooges.

This certainly wasn't the way they were viewed after the war: Churchill in particular felt the Swiss were owed a debt of gratitude for their resistance and treatment of interned soldiers and airmen during WW2.

Cheers

Gilbert

Edited January 29, 2007 by deptfordboy

[deptfordboy]

And here's a link to a review of the book I mentioned which quotes Churchill's and the US point of view in terms of Switzerland.

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Mags/TargetSwitzerland.htm

[Tiger-pie]

The more I look inot this, the less inclined I am to believe it. I suppose there will always by the dubious history of where the Swiss got their gold from, whether it be seized Nazi gold, from banks,etc. melted down jewellery or teeth.

I am however curious as to how they can say that the mercury would have all been burnt off, surely for it to be there in the first place it must have been present when they made the teeth? Also if it is so easily dismissed, why does it keep cropping up, in books & documentarys, is there no one out there that can finally put this to bed?

G'da Gordon;

This could probably be easily put to rest by a real expert, but conclusions with no controversy in a TV program don't sell air-time.

Regards;

Johnsy

PS: Definition of an expert as explained to me by one of my Chiefs when I was a young AB. Expert: x is the unknown factor, spurt is a drip under pressure.

[Tiger-pie]

Hi all

Well I looked it up, and I knew there was some sort of process to do with trace elements. It is a process called gold fingerprinting and it was developed at Curtin University in Western Australia to trace stolen gold back to its original mine. The technology works by identifying the unique signature of each piece of gold, similar to human DNA.

If you want to check it out for yourselves, just do a search using the term gold fingerprinting. There are various methods, Curtin Uni's method is only one of many.

As far as mercury is concerned, it is used to extract gold. This process was used in extracting gold prior to Western society realising how toxic mercury was to the enviroment. It would also be safe to say that any old gold that the Swiss may have have been extracted using the mercury method, thus the content would be higher than gold mined post-war. The method is still used in third world countires, mainly South America and Africa. This is known as the mercury amalgamation method, and is/was also used for extraction of silver.

Regards;

Johnsy

Edited January 29, 2007 by Tiger-pie

[mariner]

BJOW

yes interesting. But it would have to be the pre 1947 20 frank coins, because after the war the finger of guilt was being pointed at them wo the swiss would be on their guard. But they were accused of producing gold coins and bars from german gold they recieved in payment german trade during the war and backdating the coins and bars to mix them in. I suppose we need to know what the gold in the Reichsbank was made up of. It could be the swiss frank. This coin was not officially produced every year, but of the years it was produced, the numbers issued varied in a way which may support what you say. Hence in 1926 they only produced 50,000 of these coins. The next year off issue was 1927 and over 5 million were produced. Then the next year they were produced was 1930 and 3,327,000 were officially produced, then the next year they were officially produced was 1935 and 20,009,000 coins were officialy produced. That 20 million is just too many to be produced in one year. In all probablity they created most of them during the war. The 20 swiss franc wase not produced again until 1947 when they done a 1947 then a 1949 then they ended all production. I dont know how many 1935 coins they acutally officially say were created in 1935. It could be that they officially continued to create them after 1935. This policy is not unusual in the germanic area. Just look at the Austrian 4 ducat coin of 1915, and the 100 corona among many which officially continued in production many years after their officail date. I dont disagree with you.