What decoration is this (Prussian / Hohenzollern)?

[landsknechte]

Found a ribbon bar with a ribbon that looks like the Princely Hohenzollern House Order (white with three black stripes), but has a silver crown and swords device. Anyone recognize which decoration that's supposed to represent?

Thanks,

--Chris

[landsknechte]

Not the best pics, but the best I could do before my camera batteries went completely flat...

[Dave Danner]

Princely House Order of Hohenzollern Cross 3rd Class with Crown and Swords. The narrowly tapering base of the crown is consistent with the princely crown of Hohenzollern. The OZL is also consistent with an officer in F?silier-Regiment F?rst Karl Anton von Hohenzollern (Hohenzollernsches) Nr.40.

[Dave Danner]

There were 144 awards of the Cross 3rd Class with Crown and Swords between 1914 and 1920, primarily to Majors (which given the gilt swords would also fit with a Z?hringer L?wen Knight 1st Class with Swords (514-525 awards in WW1).

[landsknechte]

Thanks Dave! I had seen the reference to the 3rd class with crown and swords on your website this afternoon, but didn't want to get overly optimistic that it was something that uncommon.

I'm still in mourning after hearing the antique dealer mention that he recently sold the trio of [loose] medals that came along this this ribbon bar. Hearing him refer to the crown & swords device as an "oak leaf cluster" makes me wonder just how those medals were priced.

Does this look like the sort of combination that might be identifiable? (One can hope.)

--Chris

[Stogieman]

I think with only these 3 awards, it would be stretch to pin him down since most WW1 awards are invisible until the 1920's. If he survived that far, maybe but he would probably have additional awards. A shame to have missed the loose pieces... I would have been curious to see if they were "bargains"!

[landsknechte]

I think with only these 3 awards, it would be stretch to pin him down since most WW1 awards are invisible until the 1920's. If he survived that far, maybe but he would probably have additional awards. A shame to have missed the loose pieces... I would have been curious to see if they were "bargains"!

The sheer rarity of that grade of the Hohenzollern decoration was what gave me the most hope. I was able to convince the dealer to knock down his original "sticker price" on the bar (from $65 to $50), although it was the EK device of all things that caused him to put the price on it that he did. It was labeled as a "WWI Knight's Cross Ribbon Bar". I probably shouldn't have expected more, as the dealer referred to the crown & swords device as an "oak leaf cluster".

--Chris

Edited December 13, 2005 by landsknechte

[Deruelle]

Hi Chris,

Very nice ribbon bar. Just an info, the X and crown are in silver or not ? If it is in silver it is the first time I see such cross in silver. Usually we find these device in gold.

Regards

Christophe

[landsknechte]

Hi Chris,

Very nice ribbon bar. Just an info, the X and crown are in silver or not ? If it is in silver it is the first time I see such cross in silver. Usually we find these device in gold.

Regards

Christophe

There's a very minute chance that it was intended to be gold. The device itself is made of silver, and there is what appears to be the faintest hint of gold coloration in that bit of metal between the crown and the swords. I'm almost positive that's patina however, as there's none of that color present anywhere else on the device. There's a lot of wear on the bar, but I would expect to see some remnant of that color on the sides of the device.

--Chris

[Bob Hunter]

I would like to add one more example to the discussion for comment on grade of award and devices.

Edited December 14, 2005 by Bob Hunter

[landsknechte]

I would like to add one more example to the discussion for comment on grade of award and devices.

What you've got is a Weimar-era veteran's decoration that looks striking like the ribbon of the Princely Hohenzollern. If I remember correctly, the medal itself looks a LOT like a HHOX.

From left to right:

1. 1914 EK

2. Prussian Kriegserinnerungskreuz - 2nd Class

3. Kyffhaeuserbund

4. Prussian Sanitaetskreuz - 2nd Class

5. Austrian Ehrenlegion

6. Hungarian WWI Commemorative

He'd only have #1 and #6 that he could still wear after the introduction of the Hindenburg Cross.

--Chris

Edited December 15, 2005 by landsknechte

[Bob Hunter]

...unless he chose to be a naughty boy and fly in the face of regulations.

[landsknechte]

...also, any thoughts as to whether or not anything could be read from the presence of the usually-Saxon EK device?

[Bob Hunter]

I've always seen it referred to as a Saxon fashion statement.

[landsknechte]

I've always seen it referred to as a Saxon fashion statement.

Now that I think about it, I seem to remember there was a photo that Stogierick had of a TURK with one, so there probably is nothing definate...

[Bob Hunter]

The Turk probably got it from a Saxon.

[landsknechte]

I think with only these 3 awards, it would be stretch to pin him down since most WW1 awards are invisible until the 1920's. If he survived that far, maybe but he would probably have additional awards. A shame to have missed the loose pieces... I would have been curious to see if they were "bargains"!

Just on a lark, since the mini-EK device is so heavily Saxon in flavor, would that help in any way to narrow it down?