Soviet Is it or isn't it . . .

[Ed_Haynes]

I have recently acquired hosting rights to the group shown from a Fellow Forumite. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't a group (and it was sold and acquired on that basis). Pending research on the gallantry medal (2279019 has been requested) I have posted it here, for comments.

[Ed_Haynes]

And the reverse. Have at it, please.

[Guest Rick Research]

Ed! I love that 10 minutes past 7 serial number on the Valour Medal-- never seen one like it!

It'll be very interesting to see research!

[Riley1965]

Ed,

That's a nice looking group. The research on the Valour Medal will tell the tale. Having bought a couple of groups underthe same conditions I was fortunate to have both being "Groups". I hope the same for this one.

Doc

[Bryan]

If it's a group, I wonder why the Prague medal is an older version and that the Victory over Germany and Berlin Capture medal are later variation.

So if it's legit, it should have an interesting story from being partisan and the under Koniev orders in fighting in Berlin and in Prague.

I myself believe it's a "put together", but I'm no specialist. So let's wait for the results.

[Ed_Haynes]

If it's a group, I wonder why the Prague medal is an older version and that the Victory over Germany and Berlin Capture medal are later variation.

So if it's legit, it should have an interesting story from being partisan and the under Koniev orders in fighting in Berlin and in Prague.

I myself believe it's a "put together", but I'm no specialist. So let's wait for the results.

Soviet and Rick, you have touched on some of my concerns. We shall see, soon I hope.

Doc, I hope you're right, but . . . ???

Am I overly paranoid? Well, I do collect Soviet ODM . . . .

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Ed,

it is a rather rare combination - Berlin & Praque -, but it makes sense, as Bryan pointed out.

Why should someone doctor such a rare combination, why not a more common one?

I have the strong feeling, that it is an authentic group .

Best regards

Christian

[NavyFCO]

Why should someone doctor such a rare combination, why not a more common one?

In the mid '90s there was a dealer here in the US that used to cart around boxes of made up groups that were exceedingly random. He would charge "parts value" for them - basically whatever the medals each were worth. Where they came from or who made them I don't know.

I don't like the wear on the group, but I've seen all sorts of wild stuff with groups that came direct from families. The research will be the only way to tell, but in my cynical opinion, I would have passed on buying it unless the seller was charging only for the value of the medals alone, and not them as a group.

Also, remember that with just a Valor medal, you may or may not find out if he was ever a partisan.

Just my two cents.

Dave

[Ed_Haynes]

Yes, Dave, you echo many of my concerns. The price was a "parts" price. And I know that a "not found" result is likely if it is kosher; in this odd case, finding research would be a bad sign.

May never know though.

[NavyFCO]

And I know that a "not found" result is likely if it is kosher; in this odd case, finding research would be a bad sign.

Actually, I meant more that if he was an enlisted person, his Valor citation may well be included in one of the "group" citations, which often will not include their other awards or wartime activities. Even in a regular award document, if he was awarded his Partisan medal later than the Valor, or if the unit didn't document this award with his other previous awards, it wouldn't appear in record. Plenty of former partisans became regular army soldiers and were treated just like every other solider, even though they had been awarded one of the two Partisan medals.

The best case scenario would be that the guy was SmerSh, served as an "advisor" to a partisan unit, and then went all the way into Berlin as a junior SmerSh officer, thus allowing you to get his full citation, service history and perhaps even personnel file!

Dave

[JimZ]

Hi Ed,

I passsed on that group myself. I thought the price was right but the group was not and although I was interested, I admit that I was the partisan medal that really caught my eye. So believeing the bar not to be a group, I would have had no objection to research it via the bravery medal before taking the bar apart (if reserach showed that this was a fictitous group)

Weird or not, combinations of medals do not really impress me as somebody with a few scores of different medals can make some very interesting groups! Documentation and research however as always prove or disprove these groups. I am therefore usually very skeptical about such groups and I personally would rather invest research on higher end orders that remain unresearched!!

In any case, I hope that your gamble and research pays off and that the bar turns out to be a group! Keep us posted.

Jim

[Belaruski]

This group turned out to be 'put together', which is a shame as the wear and tear makes it look very convincing..

((Sorry for the poor quality picture))

Edited March 20, 2007 by Belaruski

[JimZ]

5 medal kolodkas are somehow rather convenient for this sort of thing - maybe being most commonly available? Again, in Belaruski's case we can see how a group with soiled ribbons and all can still be a fictitous group!

Jim

[kimj]

As the seller of this bar I hope it turns up something nice in research for you Ed. But I still believe what I wrote when selling it: It is perhaps a 20% chance (or less) that it belonged to one guy. Not impossible though and that?s what fun with the bar. Before the research answer comes... who knows?

Another thing that doesn?t really show on Ed?s excellent scan is the difference in wear on the partisan medal vs. the rest of the medals. Were as the partisan is almost polished out on the obverse the others are in almost mint condition.

Here a pic of a guaranteed ?real? partisan?s bar. Although this one is a little bit better...

/Kim

[Riley1965]

Ed,

I guess that I'm a Hopeless optimist I am hoping that this group turns out to be good just like my two groups that looked put together but turned out to be genuine. That being said, I am still leary of these groups but buy them anyway and wait for the research to tell me if my gut feeling was correct.

Doc

[JimZ]

As long as a seller is upfront about it like Kim was, then the buyer knows exactly what he is buying.... with the odd chance that it actually turns out to be something more. I call that a fair exchange!

What is important is that when buying, newbie collectors especially, learn to properly evaluate what they are paying and what they are actually receiving. Buying such a group is, after all no more than a lottery, with research being the draw! Lady luck does smile down on some bars being part and sometimes even whole groups.

Jim

[Ed_Haynes]

To be candid, this one was and is a matter of rolling the dice, and maybe (long shot?) it is legitimate. We won't know until a research response arrives, and maybe not even then. Kim was 100% (well, actually, closer to 120%!) honest on this, he's unsure, I'm unsure, though we both have hopes.

We shall see what we see.

[Gerd Becker]

If it's a group, I wonder why the Prague medal is an older version and that the Victory over Germany and Berlin Capture medal are later variation.

So if it's legit, it should have an interesting story from being partisan and the under Koniev orders in fighting in Berlin and in Prague.

I myself believe it's a "put together", but I'm no specialist. So let's wait for the results.

Bryan, do you know for sure, that these medals (u-shaped eyelet) are definately later version and if yes, where did you get that information from?

Thanks in advance

Gerd

Edited March 20, 2007 by Gerd Becker

[Bryan]

Gerd, I didn't take that information somewhere and it is just my reflection on the subject. I haven't handled so many medals in my life, but I particularly enjoy anything related to the capture of Berlin. Therefore I have acquired some documented Berlin medals during my 3 years of collecting and for me it turned out that the U-shape Berlin medals were issued later than my "round-shape ring" medals. I know it doesn't mean anything, but in my case it was so.

My biggest problem is the difference between the Berlin and Prague medals. If these were awarded at the same time, why would one have a shiny look and the other one an old used look. i know it didn't mean anything in the Soviet Union, but my understanding would be that the U-shaped medals were awarded later or the metal composition from both medals are completely different as they do not "aged" the same way.

These are just speculations. My feeling is that this is a put together medal bar, but I do hope for the new owner that it wasn't messed up by a previous dealer or collector.

Bryan, do you know for sure, that these medals (u-shaped eyelet) are definately later version and if yes, where did you get that information from?

[JimZ]

A different variation does not necessarily mean a later date of issue even if logically, one would "assume" that a variation 1, 2 and 3 would probably have some sequence to them! But one cannot go on assumptions.

What it does surely mean is :

1) a different stamp has been used - so possibly this could be a different run within the same mint or a different stamp in a different mint ; or

2) a whole different method of manufacture as in the case of say, Nevskys or OGPWs .... although this is more of a type than a variation difference.

However .... a very interesting area for discussion nevertheless and perhaps one which could eventually merit its own thread.

Jim

Edited March 20, 2007 by JimZ

[Gerd Becker]

Guys, thanks. Some interesting points to think about

[Guest Rick Research]

I've got research pending on a Red Banner in a group-- a November 1944 long service range number-- with a June 1946 long service range MMM and a couple of campaign medals. Being uneasy about it, too, in this case I have ONLY asked for the ARC and research on the Red Banner

until the research reveals whether it is just odd or parts.

Will never know without doing that. Have a medal bar with two numbered MMMs as well... who knows--- until it gets researched.

The Lastovka group (researched groups section) turned out fine, but in that case I had his Orders Book, so I knew both numbered medals matched.

[Ed_Haynes]

Well, the research is (finally!) in. For all the good it does. The promised (and paid-for) translations weren't included (as promised), so I have to beg the assistance of our Russian readers. Beg. Please. Grovel.

I think I know the outcome (rather as expected?), but . . . ?????

The award card, front side.

[Ed_Haynes]

Reverse.

[Ed_Haynes]

And the recommendation, part 1.