Fake Order of the October Revolution

[JimZ]

Obverse of fake/copy/reproduction - serial no 60346

[JimZ]

Reverse of fake/copy/reproduction - serial no 60346 Note particular sloppy rivetwork on this supposedely variation 2!

[attachmentid=63729]

[JimZ]

fake/copy/reproduction - with a blank document

[attachmentid=63730]

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Jim,

that is an "Umalatova-Award", as you can read at the document .

They are producing their own copies of the old Soviet Awards and still confer them to meritorious comrades ...

O.K., if you believe, that the Soviet Union is still alive, than that cheap copy is an genuine and authentic award .

Best regards

Christian

[JimZ]

Actually I did not bother with the document as it was so evidently not the right document.

But yes...considering we restrict ourselves to official soviet government issued ODM's....fake fake fake fake!!!

Jim

[Christian Zulus]

Umalatova-Awards

But yes...considering we restrict ourselves to official soviet government issued ODM's....fake fake fake fake!!!

Jim

Dear Jim,

that case is legally not so easy to solve, because Sazhi Umalatova from Grozny regards herself and her gang as THE legal and official soviet government .

There is an old - but very funny - thread from the "other" Soviet forum (with some CZ-postings) about Miss Umalatova and her "genuine" Soviet Awards: http://www.soviet-awards.com/forum/soviet-...-umalatova.html

I regard them not as (cheap & obvious) fakes, but as so called "Umalatova-Awards" .

Best regards

Christian

That is Sazhi Umalatova:

[Hauptmann]

Hi Gents,

As one who collects Umalatova awards this is one I'd sure love to obtain one day. Beautiful! Seems the vast majority of what we see are medals and not the older enameled awards. And being partial to OOR's I really love this one. And to have it complete with it's document... well, here's hoping I can manage to find one as complete as this one some day.

Dan

[JimZ]

Well.... I guess you know where to find it then Dan

Granted that many of today's medals do lack the complexity and beauty of the Soviet era ..... I restrict myself to official government issued Soviet ODMs but hey - if collectors are interested in unofficial or post soviet decorations ... whatever your poison!

Just as long as this Order is clearly outlined as not being an official Soviet Government award I am very happy.... call it what you may as will I

Jim

PS - Just our of curiosity.... how many people out there actually collect these so called "Umalatova Awards" and how many of them are actually buying this as the real Soviet Official Order?

[Hauptmann]

Well.... I guess you know where to find it then Dan

Granted that many of today's medals do lack the complexity and beauty of the Soviet era ..... I restrict myself to official government issued Soviet ODMs but hey - if collectors are interested in unofficial or post soviet decorations ... whatever your poison!

Just as long as this Order is clearly outlined as not being an official Soviet Government award I am very happy.... call it what you may as will I

Jim

PS - Just our of curiosity.... how many people out there actually collect these so called "Umalatova Awards" and how many of them are actually buying this as the real Soviet Official Order?

Hi Jim,

PM sent. On how many folks collect them... I don't have any numbers but I know several of our fellow members have Umalatova awards in their collections. I see them for what they are... curiosities of the post Soviet era. I also look at it this way... way back in the day when I was still into TR and I discovered the 57 reissues I expressed an interest in getting some. I was told by all and sundry that they were junk to be avoided. Of course they were comparing them with the actual TR awards and in that battle they were of much less quality by comparison. However, over time they've gone up considerably in value as TR has gone out of sight forcing collectors to look elsewhere... and the 57's seemed to be the next logical alternative. And they now seem to be an excepted area of collecting.

I only wish I'd picked up a ton of them back then as you generally couldn't give them away. Instead I managed to obtain the 1936 1st class Olympic Decoration, a Russian Front medal and a cased German Cross in gold. I may be forgetting a piece but I think that's the bulk of them. And now I've basically been priced out of most of them... at least for the forseeable future. Plus my focus for quite some time has been Soviet and Soviet block.

So I guess I'm trying to put together a decent little collection of the Umalatova's for several reasons, the curiosity factor, hedging my bets like I didn't do with the German 57's, and because I like the design of many of the awards, especially those copied from the original Soviet pieces.

As far as how many are buying them as original Soviet issue pieces... again no idea. I'd assume there will always be some... those who have not purchased the red bible or other suitable reference and who have not attempted to learn all they can about such things before making purchases. But I've seen this in all the hobbies I've ever been involved in. Shoot, I remember back in the day when I started out. I'd studied and read till my eyes bled... but that's still different from actually making purchases. I remember my first big show down in Fort Lauderdale. Granted I'd been to gun shows and such many times growing up but never to a "militaria show". I was like a kid in a candy store... plenty of money burning a hole in my pocket and nothing to hold me back. I've made my mistakes and am sure I'll make more before I go to meet my maker. But every new collector I run into I always try to tell them learn, learn, learn and then learn some more. Read, visit museums, look at other collections whenever possible, join forums like GMIC, use every resource they can get their hands on to learn all they can before spending a ton of money on something that may turn out to be fake or not what they thought they were getting.

But when it comes right down to it the ultimate responsibility lies with each collector to know what they're getting into. If they just go out and buy left and right without ever cracking a book, joining a forum or seeing other collections, going to museums, etc., then they're getting exactly what they're asking for. The resources are definitely out there... they just need to put some effort into finding and using them. When I started into Soviet there were no refs in English... at least that I could find. But I still tried to find out all I could. I even remember being offered an Order of the Red Star shortly after the wall had fallen... I was thrilled. It was beautiful. Deep red enamel... just gorgeous. No idea what the serial number was or any other details as at that point in time I didn't know about such things... wouldn't for years to come. The price then was $350. Even though I loved it I passed. Something told me it was probably way too much. So unless it was some rare variation or a particularly low serial number I probably made the right decision.

My first OPW were 2nd class 85 issues. And I know I paid too much. But again I was flying blind. But no refs so... I did get the color booklet put out by the Leningrad museum on Imperial and Soviet ODM and that helped a great deal. I began to learn. Got a few other basic guides over time. But until I joined GMIC and then managed to get a copy of the Red Bible I was still stumbling around in the dark. I got lucky and didn't make any huge mistakes. But needless to say I feel much better now... and I know I still have a ton to learn.

All we can do is be there and offer our knowledge and expertise as we all do here and hope that those in need will find us, listen and learn.

Well, I did it again didn't I? Another "Gone With The Wind" post. I can only hope I don't bore everyone to death. Kim and Nick always tell me I'm too long winded... but when I'm passionate about something I just can't help myself. And I do dearly love this hobby.

Gotta run for now. Hope one and all had a fun and safe New Years Eve.

Dan

[JimZ]

By all means....long but still interesting reading!

Once again... as a collector we all feel free to collect anything from insects to medals to coins to guns to whatever under the sun or above it.... asteroid fragments even. It is after all a case of what turns us on and what really does it for us.

To clarify my post - I do not own any "Umalatova" awards nor would I be selling them! However these can be seen on one of the foreign auction sites as I indicated in my PM reply to you. Just setting the record straight that I am not at all involved in these awards... well my posts denouncing them as fakes is after all sufficient evidence.

The only thing is... as long as an non original award is sold as an original I will denounce is as a fake if I believe it to be so. If it is sold as a copy or repro and I notice it, I still feel some obligation to record the serial number on the forum in case anyone looking for the real mc coy is taken in and buys this when what he wants is the genuine soviet era item.

Also, if any award can now qualify as Umalatova..... again I ask - where to we draw the line. What is Umalatova and what is just plain fake. Now can all fakes fall under the Umalatova name? I am sorry but I do not make that distinction. As a collector of genuine soviet awards I cannot recognise non soviet government awards as official especially where these are identical to the ones in my area of collecting. Instead I see them as a threat to newbie collectors who may want to take up the same field of collection. Of course their quality is hardly threathening but there is still a market for these items!

I do agree with you fully about collectors going into the hobby blind. The resources are out there and they will only increase. The forum members also have a vast wealth of info to share and that is also important.

At the end of the day as I said, one must draw a line somewhere.... where to do this without displeasing anyone??

All the best for the New Year!

Jim

[Guest Rick Research]

This is a very interesting one, Jim!

As opposed to the usual sad FANTASY pieces being sold to people by people who have no legal authority to do so-- the self-appointed Fantasy Government of a non-existent "Soviet Union"--

THIS one well and truly qualifies as a FRAUD.

It is, if not in quality, in every other respect a MOCK- Order of the October Revolution.

So are they also "issuing" (i.e. selling to the sort of people who Really Truly Believe that if they BUY something from the Fantasy Government they are "legally entitled" to it?) ... Red Stars, Red Banners of Labor etc etc etc?

Because that is simply FRAUD.

Recently we have seen quite a brouhaha over the Government of the Russian Federation asserting a permanent, ongoing ownership of the Orders and Decorations bestowed by the FORMER Soviet Union. If one is to accept that claim,

then the manufacture, sale, and wear of actual OFFICIAL "copyrighted" (if one may say that about any official government award from any time or place) Soviet awards right down to ribbons and names

is clearly an infringement of the power and authority of the Federation.

This is exactly the legal analogy of some freakish new Nazi group selling Third Reich awards to vain, gullible fascist people.

Now these sad, deluded folk can sell each other all the Grand Exalted Orders of Stalin or whatever they want. Those only exist as physical manifestations of their own pathetic imaginations. But to produce, market, and sell-- with an assertion of manufacture by the STATE Mint-- "exact" replications of REAL awards is illegal on any level. (If those ARE being struck out by an Organ Of The State, somebody at the State Mint needs to be fired, NOW. And if NOT, then that is ANOTHER fraud.)

If any other actual Soviet awards turn up being peddled by these folks, please let us know. I usually pay no attention to the ever increasingly desperate plethora of phony vanity pieces they are shovelling out. This is a whole new level they've sunk to.

One wonders if the Bourbon and Orl?ans families are still busily selling Orders Of the Holy Ghost to their absurd dynastic adherents. Where DOES the world of commercial fantasy end?

[Christian Zulus]

Order of the Golden Fleece

One wonders if the Bourbon and Orl?ans families are still busily selling Orders Of the Holy Ghost to their absurd dynastic adherents. Where DOES the world of commercial fantasy end?

Dear Rick,

the fact is, that at least the renowed high aristocratic families in Germany & Austria do so .

The "Order of the Golden Fleece", the highest ranking order in the christian-catholic world, http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orden_vom_Goldenen_Vlies is still confered by the chief of the Habsburg-family, today Karl von Habsburg-Lothringen, the son of Archduke Otto: http://otto.twschwarzer.de/ , the might-be emporer of Austro-Hungary. At the 23rd of july 1953 the Republic of Austria granted the right to confer the "Orden vom Goldenen Vlies" to the head of the Habsburg-family. But you have to be at least an earl or count with an old family tree + meritorious contributions to the "kaiserlich-k?nigliche Erzhaus Habsburg-Lothringen" to get that outstanding decoration.

It is the same with the so-called "Hausorden" of Germany's Ex-kings, princes & dukes. They still confer their orders.

Coming back to the so-called "Umalatova-Awards". At the beginning - in the 1990s - of the Umalatova-Movement the recipients of an "Umalatova-Award" (HSU, HSL, Lenin, Stalin, Octoberrevolution, etc., etc.) had to possibilities:

- to get an (ugly) order made of scratch for a few dollars

or

- to get an original order directly from the Russian Mint for quite a hughe amount of US-dollars.

The "Umalatova Awards", that now spoil the market are all made of scratch - ugly and primitve, but years ago - in the 1990s - anyone could buy original and genuine Soviet Awards also directly from the mint. The price tags had been rather high, but you could buy your Nevsky, Lenin, Octoberrevolution, RB, etc. for US-dollars (but no Victories, Suvorovs, Kutuzovs, etc.!). Putin stopped that "extra-business" of the mint.

Even the queer "Stalin-Order" of Miss Umalatova you could order years ago also - rather well done - in gold .

Coming to the point: Miss Umalatova does the same, as Mr. Habsburg - confering orders of a sunken period . O.K, Mr. Habsburg has a legitimation by the Republic of Austria and Miss Umalatova does not have it from the Russian Federation .

For us collectors of Soviet Awards the Umalatova-scratch does not have any value, because the CCCP vanished at the end of 1991 (as the Austro-Hungarian Empire vanished in 1919). BTW: Same numbers - only other combination .

I personally do not collect "Umalatova-Awards", despite the fact, that I bought for a few dollars a package of "Stalin-120-years-Medals" + empty documents, which I gave away (with filled out documents ) to friends for birthday, etc.

Best regards

Christian

Order of the Golden Fleece:

[Christian Zulus]

Name & title of Mr. Otto Habsburg

Gentlemen,

if someone might be interested, this is the full name & title of Mr. Otto Habsburg-Lothringen, PhD:

Von Gottes Gnaden (by the grace of god) Kaiser von ?sterreich;

Apostolischer K?nig von Ungarn;

K?nig von B?hmen, von Dalmatien, Kroatien, Slawonien, Galizien, Lodomerien und Illyrien;

K?nig von Jerusalem etc.

Erzherzog von ?sterreich;

Gro?herzog von Toskana und Krakau;

Herzog von Lothringen, von Salzburg, Steier, K?rnten, Krain und der Bukowina;

Gro?f?rst von Siebenb?rgen;

Markgraf von M?hren;

Herzog von Ober- und Nieder-Schlesien, von Modena, Parma, Piacenza und Guastalla,

von Auschwitz und Zator, von Teschen, Friaul, Ragusa und Zara;

gef?rsteter Graf von Habsburg und Tirol, von Kyburg, G?rz und Gradiska;

F?rst von Trient und Brixen;

Markgraf von Ober- und Nieder-Lausitz und in Istrien;

Graf von Hohenembs, Feldkirch, Bregenz, Sonnenberg etc.;

Herr von Triest, von Catarro und auf der windischen Mark;

Gro?woiwode der Woiwodschaft Serbien etc. etc.

Quite impressing: King of Jerusalem, Duke of Tuscany, Chief of Serbia, etc. .

For long years Mr. Habsburg had been MEP (Member of the European Parliament) representing the (conservative) Bavarian Party CSU.

Mr. Habsburg also confers the "European Order of St. Sebastian"

http://www.egs-schuetzen.com/Flash/Spracha...sh/english.html , where you do not have to be a member of the high aristocracy for getting that medal .

So, Mr. Habsburg is really a big "dude" in the "Orders-Business" (in comparison to Miss Umalatova) .

Best regards

Christian

Mr. Habsburg wearing the Order of the Golden Fleece:

[JimZ]

Oh boy.... I must say the order depicted in the pics above does remind me of an English saying to the tune of - "Give a dog a bad name and hang him!"

Rick, I see it from the same angle. I have called the items fake as they are not officially issued medals. In a way they also cannot be called non official Soviet orders because in fact the Soviet government is now defunct. They are an "identical" copy of an existing order issued by a previous government. However, the body issuing them is as you said not enititled to do so. As a collector of Soviet items I will draw my line and strike such medals out.

However I want to be respectful to anyone who wants to collect them as post soviet curiosity, and in future, my calling any so called "Umalatova" awards as fakes is totally within the context of original official government issued Soviet Orders and medals.

Jim

[Christian Zulus]

Oh boy.... I must say the order depicted in the pics above does remind me of an English saying to the tune of - "Give a dog a bad name and hang him!"

Jim

Dear Jim,

excellent suggestion for a new name of the "Order of the Golden Fleece": "ORDER OF THE BAD NAMED HANGING DOG" .

What I wanted to point out whith my remarks is, that the question of legitimation is not so easy to be solved: Miss Umalatova & Mr. Habsburg still confer orders of a long vanished period in history. Umalatova stands for the Soviet Union and Habsburg for the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

BTW: An authentic & genuine "Order of the Golden Fleece" at the golden chain might be one of the most expensive orders ever at an auction at Sotheby's or Christies' .

Best regards

Christian

[Josef Rietveld]

Christian, I'am not very happy if you compare one of the oldest chivalric knightorders to the Umalatova-Awards.

Fact is:

The golden fleece existed BEFORE the austrian-hungarian empire came into beeing

The golden fleece was ALWAYS a socalled house-order of the habsburgs, normally not given for rewards.

Different from the spanish branch of the order

As the old empire collapsed all belongings of the order of the golden fleece were given to the habsburgs as

the order didn't belong to the former state. Different from the Reichskleinodien that stayed in vienna.

So there is a historic and legislative continuiy between the order and the habsburgs. the order was always theirs and never

ours.

regards

haynau

[Christian Zulus]

The importance of the "Golden Fleece" & the "Imperial Regalia"

Christian, I'am not very happy if you compare one of the oldest chivalric knightorders to the Umalatova-Awards.

Fact is:

The golden fleece existed BEFORE the austrian-hungarian empire came into beeing

The golden fleece was ALWAYS a socalled house-order of the habsburgs, normally not given for rewards.

Different from the spanish branch of the order

As the old empire collapsed all belongings of the order of the golden fleece were given to the habsburgs as

the order didn't belong to the former state. Different from the Reichskleinodien that stayed in vienna.

So there is a historic and legislative continuiy between the order and the habsburgs. the order was always theirs and never

ours.

regards

haynau

Dear Esq. Haynau,

at special threads the remarks in my postings shouldn't be taken to literally, but more metaphorically .

But I did not compare the "Archhouse Habsburg" to Miss Umalatova in an unfair way. I already stated at this thread:

"Coming to the point: Miss Umalatova does the same, as Mr. Habsburg - confering orders of a sunken period. O.K, Mr. Habsburg has a legitimation by the Republic of Austria and Miss Umalatova does not have it from the Russian Federation."

So, I pointed out the legitimate continuity of the Habsburg's tradition in a correct way.

Concerning the "Golden Fleece", you will find more educational and serious postings from me at that thread: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...st&p=145413 (till post 33#), where I described the "Golden Fleece" as of Burgundian-Austrian origin.

You mentioned the "Spanish branch" of this order. But the fact is, that the "value" (and the phaleristic quality) of the Iberian items are much lower, than the original Burgundian-Austrian examples.

You also mentioned another highly interesting legal chase: The so called "Reichskleinodien" (Imperial Regalia = Crown of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, Holy Lance ("Spear of Destiny"), etc., etc.), which are stored and exhibited in Vienna, KHM, Schatzkammer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Regalia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Crow...ly_Roman_Empire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear_of_Destiny

Intersting question: Who is the legitimate owner - "keeper", because the "Imperial Regalia" might be a legal subject of their own - of the whole stuff?

As we know, the "Holy Roman Empire" - the only authentic holy empire - passed away in the year 1806, destroyed by Napoleon. The last ("Holy Roman") Emporer had been the Habsburg Franz the 2nd (ident with Austrian Emporer Franz the 1st ...).

Since that time, the "Imperial Regalia" are located in Vienna - with a short interruption by Gefreiter (Lance-Corporal) Adolf Schickelgruber (vulgo: "Hitler", Russian: "Gitler"), who took them back to Nuremberg - and it is absolutly not solved, who is the legal owner of the collection.

How did the "Imperial Regalia" come to Vienna?

When the army of Napoleon approached Nuremberg in the spring of 1796 the city councilors decided to remove the "Imperial Regalia" to Vienna, Austria for safe keeping. The collection was entrusted to Johann Freiherr (Baron) von H?gel, who promised to return the objects as soon as peace had been restored and the safety of the collection assured. However, the Holy Roman Empire was officially dissolved in 1806 and Freiherr von H?gel took advantage of the confusion over who was the rightful owner and sold the entire collection to the Habsburgs. When the city councilors of Nuremberg discovered this they asked for the "Imperial Regalia" back but were refused. Till 1919 the whole stuff of medival collectibles had been private property of the Habsburg family. 1919 the "Imperial Regalia" had been expropriated by the new Austrian Republic.

Legally very simple: Freiherr von H?gel had a hughe collection of nice medival collectibles to offer and Franz von Habsburg-Lothringen purchased the whole stuff. The some case, as someone offers an "Iron Crown 3rd cl." at GMIC and the passionate A&H-collector Vladimir Springfield from Kentucky buys the order .

The Austrian "Expropriation-Laws" against the Habsburg-family are due to international legislation not so 100 % legitimate and lawsuits at international courts are still going on ...

The "Kunsthistorische Museum" in Vienna keeps the "Imperial Regalia" with that interesting argumentation: "Until there is again a Holy Roman Emperor of the German Nation" .

Taken the fact, that 100 % of all countries of the former "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation" are now part of the European Union EU, then the head of the EU, President of the European Commission, Jos? Manuel Barroso http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Man...%C3%A3o_Barroso , might have some legitimation to wear and use the "Imperial Regalia" - the crown, sceptre, orb, sword, lance, etc., etc. Mr. Barroso is also member of the Roman Catholic Church and believes in god. He grew up in a Latin country and likes Germany.

So, why not use the whole collection in Brussels? Anyway it would help him to establish real authority among the EU-Commissars, when Mr. Barroso would wear the "Holy Crown" at the meetings in Brussels .

Or using the "Holy Lance", the "Spear of Destiny" for the military operations of EU-forces. The showing of the "Holy Lance" can have a tremendous effect at the battle field, as history shows, i.e. Emporer Otto the 1st & the Battle of Lechfeld against the Magyars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lechfeld . Imagine Tony Blair would take that lance, go to Bagdad and show the "Spear of Destiny" to the opponents of the British Forces: Within hours the whole Iraq might convert into the most peaceful place in the whole region .

O.K., coming back to the legal viewpoint of the "Imperial Regalia". These versions might be possible:

a) They are a legal subject of their own, but who should be the keeper:

aa) The museum in Vienna?

ab) The Habsburg-family?

ac) The EU-commission in Brussels (as the "Imperial Successor")?

ad) The museum in Nuremberg?

ae) The Pope in Rome, Joseph Ratzinger (waiting for the coronation of the coming Emporer)?

b) They are property of the Republic of Austria, due to the so called "Habsburg-Laws"?

c) They are property of Dr. Otto Habsburg-Lothringen, because his family bought the collection from Baron H?gel?

A truly tricky question .

Maybe a fair solution would be, to bring the complete collection to Sotheby's in London for auction - might be a real sensation . The hammer-price might be divided in 3 parts: One part for the Habsburg-Family, one part for the Republic of Austria and one part for the city of Nuremberg. As long, as the Russian Oligarchs pay almost USD 600.000,- for an ordinary "Order of St. Andrew", they might be also willing to pay about USD 35.000.000.000,- for getting the "Imperial Regalia" as a complete & documented group (incl. all the handcrafted cases!) in excellent condition (PMD-rating ca. 8/10).

If someone might be further interested in the topic "Imperial Regalia" and can read German, there is a great comprehensive book of Dr. Ernst Kubin: "Die Reichskleinodien - Ihr tausendj?hriger Weg", 1991: http://www.stauffacher.ch/shop/home/artike...ayxywlie2.fdc61

Yours sincerly

Christian

[bifter]

Those that are socialists & members of the socialist movments will accept the Umalatova awards as being genuine to themselves, from a leader of their own kind. Just as Freemasons give out awards to good serving individuals, so do many socialist groups (& nationalist ones). I have been involved with the studies into these groups, which involved going in amongst & living with them. I also served along side them in their daily duties. In this sense, the Umalatova awards are genuine. They are just not awarded by a government. They are given out by the same political party though.

When a collector buys a Soviet award, they are buying a Communist Party award, just as much as they are buying a Government award. Now the communist party is not in government, it does not mean that they can longer give out awards; nor does it mean that these awards are any less in meaning. The party has merely continued to give out the awards they always have done, despite having lost all powers of government.

A lot of you will not like this, but it is a fact.

Socialist, like nationalists, are strong mided; they beleive that the awards thier leaders give out are superior to any that a government not in their favour, gives out.