Imperial German Sea Pilot Badge

[Stogieman]

Hi Ferg1, are you speaking about the first badge that started the thread? The "silver" one with engraving being sold on eBay?

[Ferg1]

Hi Stogieman,no I was refering to your Schaper sea pilot badge,the first one that you posted. I have not seen a Schaper sea pilot badge like that before. Normally the pin is crooked outwards at the base of it yours appears to be dead straight and the catch is not the norm,flat metal , they usually are more of a 'D' profile wire. Also the maker mark looks a little odd (could be just the unclear picture) but I do not see any serifs on the H and the S which the Schaper mark has . I have seen a good few Schaper pieces and the style of maker mark, pin shape and set-up and obverse details do not vary to that degree. I also looked through my photo references and found 8 different pics of Schaper sea pilot badges and they were all exactly the same. Maybe yours was made by some other maker and sold through Schaper. I am not saying that your badge is ' dodgy ' but interesting and not what I would expect to see with a Schaper mark,Ferg1

[Vic Diehl]

New pics posted---any help ?

[Vic Diehl]

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[Vic Diehl]

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[Ferg1]

Better pictures,badge looks spot on 100%. Nice solid silver Schaper. I would not like to comment on the engraving though, sadly , no way of proving its originality but a lovely piece. Ferg1.

[medalnet]

Email I received today, which adds to the discussion.

Crown and Halfmoon punch mark are never a good sign. Engravings are widely

forged as well.

If I had to buy a piece I would go for a standard bronze gilt one. Example

of a "Land Flieger" attached, the sea flieger looks the same from the

reverse and basic features of the front.

Andreas

Would it not be common courtesy to ask permission before posting private correspondence/emails on the internet?

[medalnet]

...nevertheless the reverse of the Shaper Navy XXXX badge:

[Vic Diehl]

You are absolutely correct and my mistake. My intention was to post the comment and not the name. I have been on the other end of that and I fully understand your point. My apologies to all concerned.

vic

[Stogieman]

If you check Detlev Niemann's book on German Medals & Badges you'll see an example of a crown, moon, 800 mark from a Navy badge. However the maker is not Juncker, as far as anyone knows at this point.

[Vic Diehl]

As a postscript to this discussion the badge sold on German eBay today for $2,587.41

[Mike K]

As a postscript to this discussion the badge sold on German eBay today for $2,587.41

I guess that means non-seriffed maker mark variations are accepted?

Regards

Mike

[Stogieman]

Mike, I believe the non-serif are the real ones. But this is my opinion.

[Luftmensch]

Mike, I believe the non-serif are the real ones. But this is my opinion.

Buyer paid $7400 for this in Thies' last auction, serifs case and all.

[Ferg1]

Serifs are correct on this maker mark ,but there does appear to be another Schaper mark without serifs on the letters. But having said that most makers have more than one variation of MM. so not suprising. Ferg1.

[Stogieman]

So you are modifying this position??

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...st&p=188368

My experience thus far has been that I have seen many, many with serifs that were quite awful. But have yet to see a "non-serif" marked one that was fake.

Similar things can be found with respects to Bavarian badges. The majority of the "ray-backs" out there are quite bad.. however another style appears to have been spared the forger's efforts... for the moment

[Ferg1]

No modifications on my views re. Schaper marks, it is just that the non-serif Schaper marks are rare to find but given everything else about the badge it seems good.I agree that the fake ones have serifs on the name but are not quite right,the rest of the badge normally gives it away anyway, what with the horrible patinated bronze finish and bland features. I own 4 Schaper made badges but only two have pins !! The other two are screw backs. I think that the design of a heavy badge and a relatively weak pin caused alot of 'breaks' ,and as a result one sees quite a few of these badges with non-standard replacement pins and screw devices.

As for Bavarian badges............ a sticky subject indeed, seems to be phases when a lot come up for sale within a few weeks then nothing, but they all seem to have one constant ,or nearly always, that is the one spokeless wheel of the undercarriage .They all seem to be this example coming up for sale. I bought a Bavarian pilot badge a while ago which was found in a Lake in Bavaria but in amazing condition ,of course it had spokes in both wheels and many other finer details which the common ' empty wheel ' ones do not. It is perplexing ,but I feel ( which is my opinion) that there are genuine examples of the spokeless wheel type which are 1920's/1930's pieces but they have been heavily faked by the electro-forming process. I think too that the flat backed examples rather than the ray-backed are the safer ones............possibly !! I keep observing the subject. Ferg1.

[Vic Diehl]

More pics of this badge with serif trademark posted with permission

[Vic Diehl]

Case markings

[Vic Diehl]

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[Vic Diehl]

Would you expect this name in the Navy ranklists?

[Guest Rick Research]

Unlike the army, naval observers were often enlisted ranks. S?nnichsen was not an officer or a pre-war Warrant Officer.

However, two of the three Hanseatic Cross award rolls are now "out there" to be worked on, for instance, and as more and more rolls get done, it may well be possible in the future to "miraculously" turn up previously invisible people. All it takes is months upon months of mind-numbing, fingertip eroding, spine-bending, bleary eyed Sutterlin transcription to get to the point where alphabetized lists make

EUREKA Moments

possible.