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Are you sure they were presented to Selous Scouts? it looks to be a long after event thing that was commercially availible to anyone with a Franklin mint catalog....

Sorry, but I dont think this is anything official, or related to the Scouts themselves.

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Are you sure they were presented to Selous Scouts? it looks to be a long after event thing that was commercially availible to anyone with a Franklin mint catalog....

Sorry, but I dont think this is anything official, or related to the Scouts themselves.

Hi Chris,

Yes, I'm sure they were awarded while the scouts were still together. If you are familiar with the book "Pamwe Chete", by Lt. Col. Ron Reid-Daly, this award can be seen being presented to the two (black and white) RSM's of the regiment.

Cheers,

James

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Hi,

Just asked a serious Scout collector. he has one as well. They were given out within the regiment, but were also for sale commerially.

A nice piece.

best

Chris

Hi Chris,

Thanks, they look much better in hand than in the photos.

You are correct about them being given to regiment members as well as being available to be purchased from the minters.

Who might this other collector be if I might ask? If you'd prefer, you can send me a PM. I might already know the fellow, if not, I'd be interested in contacting him!

All the best!

Cheers,

James

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Indeed... nice stuff!!

Any issued wings in there?

Whats the going prices nowdays for Issued and numbered, but not issued?

Thanks

Chris

Hi Chris,

Three of the wings are issued for sure and possibly a forth! One is numbered but not issued and one is unnumbered.

Issued numbered wings can reach a hefty sum, depending if they are for a European and or a decorated Scout, either European or African. Generally, a set of wings for a African Scout will start around the $500.00 mark. The unissued but numbered wings can start around $60.00 and work there way up and the unnumbered ones are around the $60.00+ mark as well....if they're from the "original dies"!!

Cheers,

James

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Very nice - are the beret badge and collar dogs silver or aluminium?

It's very interesting to see the colour variations - the bronze wings were coated with a sort of chocolate-brown antiquing effect, but a lot of the issued wings were cleaned by their wearers and have consequently lost their brown patination.

I'm sure that you already know Peter Garratt's web site at www.rhodesianmilitaria.com, but I cannot recommend it highly enough to anyone who hasn't yet visited. He has a pictorial database on the site that covers dozens of variations of the different Rhodesian fakes knocking around, and has always been unstintingly generous in his time and expertise when I've asked his advice about items. It's startling - and depressing - to see how widespread the faking of Rhodesian militaria is!

On an earlier note in this thread, the Selous Scouts ingot may well have been given to some members of the regiment, but it was most definitely advertised in newspapers and magazines and sold to the general public by Matthews Manufacturing of Bulawayo, who struck it.

Edited by Jacaranda

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Very nice - are the beret badge and collar dogs silver or aluminium?

It's very interesting to see the colour variations - the bronze wings were coated with a sort of chocolate-brown antiquing effect, but a lot of the issued wings were cleaned by their wearers and have consequently lost their brown patination.

I'm sure that you already know Peter Garratt's web site at www.rhodesianmilitaria.com, but I cannot recommend it highly enough to anyone who hasn't yet visited. He has a pictorial database on the site that covers dozens of variations of the different Rhodesian fakes knocking around, and has always been unstintingly generous in his time and expertise when I've asked his advice about items. It's startling - and depressing - to see how widespread the faking of Rhodesian militaria is!

On an earlier note in this thread, the Selous Scouts ingot may well have been given to some members of the regiment, but it was most definitely advertised in newspapers and magazines and sold to the general public by Matthews Manufacturing of Bulawayo, who struck it.

Jacaranda,

The cap and collar dogs are anodized aluminium. I have both the first and second pattern cap badges, as well as issued and unissued berets.

The colour on the wings range from the dark chocolate brown with full lacquer, to well worn ones with little finish left.

Yes, I'm aware of Peter's site and would highly recommend it as well. As a matter of fact, you'll see several of my items on his site under the Selous Scouts items!

I'm sure at some point the ingots were available for sale to the public. I have an email from a fellow in the know who had told me the story about how they were initially made for the regiment and after they sold or awarded their share of them to their members, they were released to the public.

Cheers,

James

Edited by JamesM

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[attachmentid=61015]

On an earlier note in this thread, the Selous Scouts ingot may well have been given to some members of the regiment, but it was most definitely advertised in newspapers and magazines and sold to the general public by Matthews Manufacturing of Bulawayo, who struck it.

Just on aside note to this...I believe that these ingots were produced after the initial run of 1500, for sale to the public. I'll enclose some photos of one of the ingots that I feel is a "post " first run production piece.

This type of ingot has nowhere near the definition of the initial run, they do not have a serial number on them, and the case, although the same design and material, does not come with a Selous Scouts Osprey affixed to the lid of the case!

Cheers,

James

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The outer case!

That's really interesting to see, James: thank you very much; I had no idea that there was a second series that can be identified so easily. (I've just glanced again at your user ID and twigged who you are! Of course you know Peter G: my apologies for being so dense: I'm not terribly quick on the uptake, I'm afraid!)

It certainly looks as though the restrikes may not have been struck on mirror-finish blanks, as I am certain was the case with the original run. I could easily be getting confused with some of the other commemorative medallions issued by companies like Livingstone Mint and Matthews Manufacturing, but I'm almost certain that the original issue medallions also had a Rhodesian sterling silver hallmark on the rim, with a sable antelope's head device.

I'm not surprised that these were restruck: I know that about 4 years ago the original dies for many of the Rhodesian army cap badges surfaced in Bulawayo, being offered for sale at a ludicrously high price. And a coin dealer in Bedfordshire in the UK has been touting round restruck Rhodesian crosses - Bronze and Silver Cross, Grand Cross of Valour and Police and Prison Gallantry Crosses - sans ribbon, for the last couple of years.

On a related note, it's interesting to see that on eBay a seller is offering original unissued Rhodesian army buttons, slouch hats, hackles and belts. In 2004 someone showed me photographs of a collection of stock that had clearly been an Rhodesian army surplus purchase or similar: literally hundreds of rolls of belt material from different regiments; thousands of cards of buttons and thousands of bags of loose badges, and cards of badges. If this is the same collection being dispersed, then it could go on for the next 20 years and still not even scratch the surface!

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Jacaranda,

The quality of the first run ingot, in both finish and definition, don't even compare with the second run. I imagine they had the same ideas as Werner Reuteler, ?Reuteler Manufacturing?, when they did the restrike...money! There was an increased interest and demand for S/Scouts items, so why not cash in on it. The way things were going in Rhodesia at the time, I would have tried to make as much money as possible too!

However, that leads to the point you brought up with all the restrikes and excess materials from the quartermaster's stores. I don't have a problem with the original items, obviously, but the restrikes are another thing. Luckily, some of the restrikes can be discerned from the originals from the materials they are using to make them now. This is why sites like Peter's are a plus for collectors. He sets out the good from the bad. Like most militaria items being reproduced, they are generally the more expensive items that the fakers are putting out. Having sites like this and Peter's, can only help to clear the muddy waters a bit and hopefully save someone from shelling out hard earned money for something that's not original.

On a good note, I think I can safely say that the original dies for the Selous Scouts items are in safe hands and will not be used again!!

One last shot of the secong run ingot with case. Note the colour difference in the velvet lining!

Cheers,

James

Edited by JamesM

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Hello there, I've just joined the board. Nice to see there's a place where the Rhodie stuff can be discussed.

I've been collecting Rhodesian Army militaria from 10 years now, and get a couple of Selous Scouts items, like this ID'd shirt (wings are original but not numbered). I also own the Para Jump log book of the same individual.

selous18.jpg

Eric

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I have a Rhodesian GSM to a Selous Scout, 645029 CPL A. MUSENDEKWA.

He qualified for his para wings No. 130 and is listed as a SGT. on the nominal roll in 'Pamwe Chete'.

I'll try and post a photo later tonight.

Derek

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Interesting thread, my only Rhodesian items are a few cap badges, aquired through a friend who is ex-RLI, but that medal on e-bay is tempting me.............

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Hello there, I've just joined the board. Nice to see there's a place where the Rhodie stuff can be discussed.

I've been collecting Rhodesian Army militaria from 10 years now, and get a couple of Selous Scouts items, like this ID'd shirt (wings are original but not numbered). I also own the Para Jump log book of the same individual.

selous18.jpg

Eric

Eric,

Who is the shirt named to? What other items do you have that are S/Scouts related?

Cheers,

James

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James,

The shirt and Para Jump log book are named to Mike Kerr, BCR. He is pictured in 'Pawme Chete'.

I'm not focusing on the Scouts, so I've very few things, ie 1 used beret (named but not on Wings list) & 2 unused, one stable belt, and that's it.

Other items I have which were used by both the Scouts and the RhSAS are a set of OG combat uniform (cap, shirt and trousers) worn for Cross-Border Ops, a pair of flat soled leather combat boots (came from Inkomo Barracks QM Store), and a Chicom chest webbing with Rhodie provenance.

Cheers

Eric

Edited by The Saint

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Beret, Officer's (silk sweatband), Lobatse label, unissued. The cap badge is not an officer's pattern, but standart anodised.

Edited by The Saint

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