army historian Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 Hello, all. I was at an antique show yesterday and looked at a 4 medal Bavarian bar: 1914 EK2; BMVC4wS, Honor Cross and Bavarian Silver Long Service Medal. I was offered the bar for USD $300.00. Did not buy. But what I noticed was the ring mark on the 1914 EK2 was "Fr". I Chuckled, as the first thought that came to mind was "France", but I knew that could not be true. Does anyone have a list of all these marks and maker? Cheers Captain Albert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barzda Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 Fr - Friedlander & Co, Berlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny70 Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 (edited) Here's some links to a site I found very useful... http://www.kaisersbunker.com/stuff/1914_EK1_makers.htm http://www.kaisersbunker.com/stuff/1914_EK2_makers.htm Curse this lack of line breaks, it's really annoying me now. Edited October 10, 2010 by Danny70 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 I'm not sure what you mean with BMVC4wS, but if it was a Bavarian Military merit order, 4th class with swords, that was a quite reasonable price. Here's some links to a site I found very useful... Don't seem that usefull to me, with some guessed interpretations. I hoped these lists would disappear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny70 Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 ..... Don't seem that usefull to me, with some guessed interpretations. I hoped these lists would disappear... I wasn't aware of that... being relatively new to imperials. Do you know of any accurate lists that i could study up on? Regards - Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
army historian Posted October 10, 2010 Author Share Posted October 10, 2010 I wasn't aware of that... being relatively new to imperials. Do you know of any accurate lists that i could study up on? Regards - Danny Are there better lists? As for BMVC4wS = Bavarian Military Merit Cross 4th with swords (not the order) - excuse my attempt at short hand. Cheers Captain Albert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barzda Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 1914 * - Rothe & Neffe, Wien SILBER - Rothe & Neffe, Wien + - unknown ׀׀׀ - unknown A - Assmann & Sohn, Lüdenscheld AP - unknown AM+ - unknown AWS - A.Werner & Sohne B - A.Borsh, Munchen B 800 - A.Borsh, Munchen BD - unknown BD 800 - unknown C - unknown CD - Carl Dillenius, Pforzheim CD 800 - Carl Dillenius, Pforzheim 800 CD - Carl Dillenius, Pforzheim CR - unknown D - Doodlee, Karlsruhe E - unknown ED - Elimeyer, Darmstadt E.W - Emanuel Wolff, Carlsruhe F - Fehermann, Berlin FO - Friedrich Orth, Wien(?) Fr - Friedlander & Co, Berlin Fr 800 - Friedlander & Co, Berlin Fr W - Friedlander & Co, Berlin FR - Friedrich Rothe, Wien FW - Franz Xaver Wimmer G - Godet & Sohn, Berlin G 800 - Godet & Sohn, Berlin G 835 - Godet & Sohn, Berlin G & S - Godet & Sohn, Berlin GD - Gustav Deschler, Munchen H - Paul Hadrbolec, Hannover HB - Heinrich Busch, Neuss a.Rh HBG - unknown H.B.O. - unknown HW - unknown I - unknown IVI - unknown IR - unknown I.W - Iohann Wagner & Sohn, Berlin(?) I.W 008 - Iohann Wagner & Sohn, Berlin(?) J C. E. - Junker, Berlin Unmarked – Junker, Berlin JW - J.H. Werner, Berlin J.W.S - Johann Wagner & Sohn, Berlin K - unknown K. - unknown K 800 - unknown K 950 - unknown K 5 - unknown K.A.G. - Kuns und Aktien-Gesellschaft K.A.G. 800 - Kuns und Aktien-Gesellschaft KAW - unknown KC - unknown KD - unknown K.M. - Königliches Münzamt, Studgard K.M.800 - Königliches Münzamt, Studgard K.M.008 - Königliches Münzamt, Studgard 800 K.M. - Königliches Münzamt, Studgard KMST(?) - unknown KO - Oskar Kunath, Nürnberg K.O - Königliches Münzamt, Berlin K.O 750 - Königliches Münzamt, Berlin K.O 800 - Königliches Münzamt, Berlin K.O 835 - Königliches Münzamt, Berlin KP - Karl Pollath, Schrobenhausen KR - unknown L - A.Lanz, Hagen I.W. LM - unknown LV - unknown("Lieferungsverband fur EK, Berlin") LV 2 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 4 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 5 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 8 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 10 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 11 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 12 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 15 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 17 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 18 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 19 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 24 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 26 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 29 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 33 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 34 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 42 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 52 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 57 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 60 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 65 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 75 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 78 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 80 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 81 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 84 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 88 - unknown ("― // ―") LV 800 - unknown ("― // ―") LW - Luis Wernar, Berlin LW 800 "crown" - Luis Wernar, Berlin LW 008 - Luis Wernar, Berlin M - T.H.Müller, Weimar M+ - unknown +M+ - unknown +M+O - unknown M.O - unknown M.Q - unknown MEH - unknown MFH – M.Flex & Sohn, Hamburg M.M – Max Mann, Beuthen O.-S. N - Neuhaus & Söhne, Berlin O - unknown O M - unknown OSM - unknown P – Paul Meybauer, Berlin PH - Paul Hossauer, Berlin Pr - unknown PS – Preusische Staatsmunze, Berlin PS 800 – Preusische Staatsmunze, Berlin Q - Edward Quellhorst, Munchen R - Alfred R?r R.P - R.Pracht, Braunschweig R.SCH - unknown R.W. – Kilian Ruckert, Wurzburg S - unknown 800 Sd - Friedrich Sedlatzek, Berlin S-W - Jereme Sy & Albert Wagner, Berlin S-W 800 - Jereme Sy & Albert Wagner, Berlin S-W 950 - Jereme Sy & Albert Wagner, Berlin T - Henrich Timm, Berlin U - Gustav Uhlig, Halle S UI - unknown V - unknown V 800 - unknown W - Wagner Wa - unknown wa - unknown WB - unknown We - unknown we - unknown WG - unknown Wien - unknown Wilm - H.R.Wilm, Berlin Wilm 800 - H.R.Wilm, Berlin Wilm 925 - H.R.Wilm, Berlin WMS - Wilhelm & Mayer, Stuttgart WS - Wagner & Sohn, Berlin W & S - Wagner & Sohn, Berlin WuS - Wagner & Sohn, Berlin Y - unknown Z - J.Zehn, Berlin Z 800 - J.Zehn, Berlin ZS - Zimmerer J.G. & Sohne (') - unknown "crown" - unknown - unknown 800 - unknown 9 800 – unknown HUW(?) – Erste Osterreichisch-Ungarische Metallknopfe-und Metallwaren- Fabrik Heinrich Ulbricht's Witwe, Wien 900 HUW – Erste Osterreichisch-Ungarische Metallknopfe-und Metallwaren- Fabrik Heinrich Ulbricht's Witwe, Wien Unmarked – unknown (M.H.Hansen, Kiel/Koch & Bergfeld, Bremen/-?) Unmarked(thin version~13 gr.) – unknown Unmarked(hollow~13 gr.~ 1930's) – unknown(Friedrich Linden, Lüdenscheid) Unmarked(one piece,~ 1930/40's) – unknown (Otto Schickle, Pforzheim-?) Unmarked (~ 1930/40's) – Wilhelm Deumer, Ludenscheid L/11(~ 1930/40's) – Wilhelm Deumer,Ludenscheid Unmarked – unknown ------------ 1939 frame ----------- Unmarked - Steinhauer & Luck, Ludenscheid L/10 - Deschler & Sohn L/54 - Schauerte & Hohfeld, Ludenscheid L/57 - Boerger & Co. Berlin (L/15?) - Otto Schickle, Pforzheim --------------------------------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barzda Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 PS: (?) - that is "not confirmed, supposedly" . . . :whistle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 As for BMVC4wS = Bavarian Military Merit Cross 4th with swords (not the order) - excuse my attempt at short hand. Cheers Captain Albert Albert, there is no such award. The Bavarian military merit cross never had more than three classes, and if it was the 3rd (coppered, no enemal), that was way to expensive. barzda's list is nice, but as any other, full of mistakes. The marks might be right, but anything else, well... Sorry! I'm not aware of any proper list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barzda Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 Where is mistakes ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 I don't have time and fun to check anything there - and cannot, as I don't know on which sources the information is based, so just some things of a first, quick look: Hossauer went out of business in 1859(!), I don't think Quellhorst was still in business in 1914, the Königliche Münzamt in Berlin made not even one Iron Cross, and the Preußische Staatsmünze, Berlin is probably the same. The crosses with SILBER mark are currently believed to be by Zimmermann in Pforzheim, not Rothe in Vienna. A non-German official maker doesn't make sense at all. I can highly recommend not to trust any of these list around. Maybe for the marks, but not for the "actual makers". And, by the way - what for? Is it that important a EK2 was made by Zimmermann, Wagner or Godet, if they are mere standard? Isn't just any nice EK a nice EK - and a bravery award, now almost a hundered years old? Collecting variations is fine - but why guesses on the makers? Nearly nothing is known about WW1 EK2 makers. It's about 95% rumors, 5% facts. But what for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 barzda's list is nice, but as any other, full of mistakes. The marks might be right, but anything else, well... I think the problem is, someone once took a list of noted WW1 ring stamps and tried to match them to the initials of the LDO list, then added in initials of other known producers of medals. There is no way of knowing if they are lucky guesses or bad guesses. Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
army historian Posted October 12, 2010 Author Share Posted October 12, 2010 (edited) wow, I did not want to start a study, just interested. I guess if the EK2 is marked, it is probably good - Silver, 3 piece, magnetic center, etc. I understand (from some where) that about 6 million EK2's were awarded in WW1, and about 215,000 EK1s. As a comparison about 250,000 British Crimea medals were awarded. Cheers Captain Albert Edited October 12, 2010 by army historian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barzda Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 I think the problem is, someone once took a list of noted WW1 ring stamps and tried to match them to the initials of the LDO list, then added in initials of other known producers of medals. There is no way of knowing if they are lucky guesses or bad guesses. Best Chris Of course, this my list isn't very correct ... but, unfortunately, there is no better .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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