Soviet Order of the Red Banner

[Guest Rick Research]

I'm not happy with the book (?) that attributes those numbers to those dates. There are too many documented awarded examples that do NOT fit: T4 V1 Moscow made "1951-52" but 397,768 actual bestowal date 16.8.53; T4 V3 Leningrad made "1954-57" but 372,851 = 15.11.50 and 378,042 = 20.3.52.

If these high ORB serial numbers were indeed manufactured and numbered unissued by 1957, they certainly sat around in boxes unused for many years until actually handed out, based on known documented numbers into the 1960s. And the numbers awarded BEFORE claimed production runs cast, in my mind, sufficient doubt on the accuracy of these production run claims to make them dubious.

This is why I am interested in getting specific awards documented by date to serial number whenever possible. THOSE we can know absolutely are correct and not estimates or guesses. In the absence of hard information, in the face of errors and mistakes, we have to try to be as specific and accurate as we can-- ONE number at a time. Estimates and guesses are fine-- thay are all we have to go on in too many cases-- but we must guard against accepting Published Gospel when here "on the ground" we come into contrary evidence.

Here are my Leningrad T4 V3 serial range Red Banners. The dies are identical.*** Left to right: 499,337 in a documented group, but this circa 1954 20 years award was after his Award Record Card was last updated (in Orders Book and service record without date/number). "loose" 504,242 , and Orders Book documented 552,020 which was bestowed on 21 February 1969:

[attachmentid=9194]

[attachmentid=9195]

I have trouble getting the real finishes on these scanned accurately because the patina darkens them as the scanner "sees" them. These are brightened a couple of bumps. Aside from hand finishing on the edges, they are indeed identical EXCEPT...

note that the two line one piece "Mint" stamps*** identical on the later 2 Orders, but the earliest one has a perpendicular || upright " Д " whereas the later two are )| shaped " Д "s. The DIES are identical, and only the hand applied stamp is different. These three are no statistical sample to generalize upon (that's why each and every one is important to our collective knowledge) but it looks as if the Mint stamp was changed between 499,XXX and 504,XXX.

[Gerd Becker]

Rick,

thanks for bringing up this points. You are right, you have to be careful with the spread information.

How many Red-Banners do you have?

best,

Gerd

[Alfred]

The numbers and dates from my previous post are from the russian Mondvor side.

Yes indeed, the dates doesn?t fit really.

[Guest Rick Research]

I'm like Saint Thomas... I like to SEE the evidence!

I only have 14 Red Banners, mostly because I prefer all my Soviet awards in groups, partial if not full. That's why I never got a Lenin. Never wanted to plunk out big bucks (then or now) for a loose undocumented one that could have been for getting in the potato crop. Serial numbers from 1,869 to 552,020 but you know me-- I collect documented dates on all the military Orders (or potentially military Orders) for my own "data base" figuring.

[Gerd Becker]

"ONLY" have 14 Red-Banners

I have only 4 so far. Here is the latest addition, i thought, you might like to see it. Its nice with PERFECT (really!!!) enamel and a nice patina. Serialnumber is 136.023. Now, that i can compare a Type 3 to my Type 4?s, i can definately see, they are different.

Gerd

Edited August 27, 2005 by Gerd Becker

[Guest Rick Research]

That falls right into the first long service awards on 3 November 1944 range-- I've seen numbers (many, many numbers) between 113,XXX and 199,XXX all on that date. Not all to be sure-- Colonel Maguta's TWO in the 125,XXX range were: one 3 November long service and one 7 November actual award...

but within this range chances are good for a 20+ years service award.

Research could show amazing or boring... and no way to tell without doing it!

[Gerd Becker]

That falls right into the first long service awards on 3 November 1944 range-- I've seen numbers (many, many numbers) between 113,XXX and 199,XXX all on that date. Not all to be sure-- Colonel Maguta's TWO in the 125,XXX range were: one 3 November long service and one 7 November actual award...

but within this range chances are good for a 20+ years service award.

Research could show amazing or boring... and no way to tell without doing it!

←

I have these two in my database:

133.595 19.10.1944

142.920? 24.01.1945

so mine is, like you said it, from November 44.

Nevertheless, i will let it research, but not yet.

Gerd

[Bison]

I found a worker mark "d" on my Red-Banner.

Do you know the meaning of it ? Control ? Workshop mark ?

regards

Bison

[Guest Rick Research]

Hey-- that is really neat! I never saw such a mark there before! Usually they are someplace in the middle--like Colonel Maguta's, above.

102,XXX is a VERY odd serial number range-- awarded from 29 May 1943 (102,583--obviously processed LATER) to 29 February 1944 (102,856).

[Bison]

Thank you Rick

So my red banner could be from 1943

But I am wondering also about this additional reverse mark.

Reading your previous post, I saw this "d", that is why I come to you.

I have read this in the "Order of the red banner " : " У орденов с номерами до 121000 на реверсе встречаются технологические клейма в виде выбитых пуансонами цифр и букв: ?1?, ?7?, ?8?,?0?, ?N?, ?Д?, ?Т?."

And it is this picture :

What do you think about this ?

Edited June 7, 2008 by Bison

[Bison]

I found this in a catalog Here, and the #74 is perfectly corresponding to mine, presented above.

The comment is : "Silver gilt and enamels (Durov, type 5) reverse with mint mark, struck serial no. (below 191.000) ans "D" for a duplicate award (see Durov pages 114-116); original ribbon. Extremely fine, rare. In 1955-56, a small series of unnumbered pieces was made at Leningrad mint to re-numbered and given to rehabilitated survivors of the repressions in the 30s-early 50s, or their next-of-kins; apparently, the present piece is a duplicate of a 1945-awarded type 4 Red Banner."

What do you think about this?

Regards

Bison

[Guest Rick Research]

Only research would confirm that and I do not think research is possible any more due to the current situation there.

[Ed_Haynes]

My first screwback Red Banners.

33254

[Ed_Haynes]

And 75934.

Research -- of course -- is underway.