saschaw

Sure for being confusing, was not my intention! I believe "FR" and "Fr." to be the same maker, and I believe it to be Friedländer from Berlin, from the reasons I brought: I assume them to be 1) awarded crosses 2) from pre-April 1917 era. Scharfenberg's article doesn't give any other makers name that could fit, and none comes to mind. Friedeberg wasn't in existance for a long time by 1914. I'm having an "FR" cross here, in the award case. Doesn't proove it is an awarded cross, of course, but is an indication. Just found this one, today, by coincidence: http://www.lot-tissimo.com/de/i/6212889/p/36/ One cross engraved to be awarded in january of 1916 and coming with the early to mid-war award case doesn't proove anything, too. But it fits my thoughts: early and awarded cross, which rules out anything but a Berlin maker. Thanks, very interesting! But one cross with Austrian and German marks doesn't convince me the cross is Austrian made. Though interesting, no doubt. PS: The cross's hard ware looks sooo much like Joh. Wagner & Sohn's from Berlin, doesn't it... ?!

I agree this seems to be vaulted, but I don't know how we know it must be his awarded cross and how we know this must be the award document in his hand?

You're right, Trevor, that we don't have actual proof for these assumptions, especially the connections of (indeed) known makers and the marks they used. But the few provided facts speak a clear language, and if we work as scientistic as possible with that few facts we have, and if we even mind Occam's razor... not many questions remain, at least for me. Similar with "We." crosses: 1st classes by "We." are known and are definitely "probemäßig". It is known J. H. Werner from Berlin supplied the GOK with 1st and 2nd class crosses, in not too big figures by the way. The crosses with "J. H. WERNER / BERLIN" mark are not "probemäßig" but vaulted, and some with screw disc. So what about the crosses J. H. Werner delievered to the GOK? I'm sure they are the "We." ones, but can I prove it? No. Just as I cannot prove the moon isn't made from cheese. By the way, back to "FR": Wouldn't a WW1 era Vienna made award for private purchase be hallmarked with Austrian silver hallmarks?! One could assume it should, and it probably would be... but the "FR" crosses never are, from what I've seen. Makes it doubtfull, for me, they are Austrian made.

I'm no more believing him one word and assume it wasn't just one friend of him... Imperial documents don't fetch these prices. Never. In 2012, the document for the one and only Prussian Military Merit cross awarded for China was sold on ebay - for less than half of this money. And this MVK document is of so much higher interest to the collecting world. This Hassian ebay auction was a farce.

Thanks Chris, I was indeed planning to post the bar here, but was too busy the days. In case you're referring to my bar and bow posted by Chris in #332 and #333, they're not a set.

As I believe them to be awarded crosses and pre-1917, I don't find it possible they're by Rothe or any other non-Berlin maker. By the way, same is for the other Prussian orders with "FR" mark. It's really not likely that all RAO4 marked "FR" are private purchase Vienna made crosses. After all, Friedländer was a maker who supplied the GOK.

I have no sources, but want to add the awards ended in 1924, not in 1918 or 1919, which might explain it...

Or in the Navy. Great one. Nice to see a bar with real 1st class MVK from time to time... ;o(

But what a lovely one! I especially like the screwed on sword device... typical for these old ones. By the way, I assume it's rather for a RAO4Xw thann for a KO4Xw, as the latter is often seen with a "crown and swords" device in these days!

Talking about ebay seller "hagekna41", we may not forget his wife(?) "agle42", who's active at the moment! http://www.ebay.de/sch/Militaria-/15502/i.html?item=321062408886&pt=Militaria&hash=item4ac0cf92b6&_ssn=agle42 This two ribbon bars also did come from him and were re-sold now, but by an honest seller who claimed he's not sure if they're real. http://www.ebay.de/itm/150984804061 http://www.ebay.de/itm/150984804676 Sorry for hijacking this thread, but this is important information, I'd say, and not everyone reads the fake bar threads.

Ah, okay. Then I misread your posts. Fact is facts are barely known to answer your raised questions. I'm having my opinions of which many are fact or observation based. But that doesn't help much...

Or in archive works. I find it a great work Dr. Scharffenberg has undertaken, and am curious how much new facts will be in Dr. Wernitz' book. Who knows, maybe all (or most of the) puzzle parts were missing today? Hopefully at least some... Well... if the guy on the phone told you, it must be true. Or he didn't know. Or he didn't care. What I want to say - an old worker from a factory, who - as I assume - wasn't even there back than (in WW1!), is not a proof. Archive documents are. At least we agree and have the same conclusion... =)

Have you read another Scharffenberg article than I did? The GOK ordered the 1st classes from Berlin firms only, which annoyed the makers from other cities, e. g. Hanau, and this didn't change until the responsibility was wrested from the GOK and given to the EZA in April 1917. So, although we don't have any official document that gives each abbreviation a complete firm name, we still can assume with a probability bordering on certainty - for the 1st half of WW1's EK 1 - that "S-W" stands for Sy & Wagner, "G" for Godet and "WS" für Joh. Wagner & Sohn, while we can be dead sure that a "FR" marked cross, if delivered officially and pre-April 1917, cannot be made by Frank & Reif in Stuttgart. This is so few facts we have at the moment in this regards it's making me sad they are ignored for some baseless theories.

I don't find a abbreviations system using the first letter(s) "esoteric". The dozen different lists with numbers introduced by the Nazis was much more esoteric, in my eyes. And I think we can accept this as a fact: the letters represent the firm names, obviously... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor Zehn and Neuhaus, who delivered thousands of 2nd class crosses? The marks of the established firms were not that "well known", or at least not permanently. The important firm J. Godet & Sohn e. g. used a punch mark "JG&S" on their RAO4, but just a "G" on their "probemäßige" EKs. Joh. Wagner & Sohn, main supplier of the GOK, scratched a "W" on their RAO4, but used e.g. different hallmarks "WS" on their EKs 1st class, and possibly even some others on their 2nd classes. Still, the GOK probably knew who was who, as they hadn't to much suppliers, and possibly(!) indeed a master list we don't have...

Possibly some, but it doesn't matter, as these non-Berlin makers would not have delivered the EK1 until April 1917 - and I'm totally sure "Fr." as well as "FR" crosses do pre-date this change. Is this a maker mark "W" or rather a quality controll mark? If not the latter, I'd guess they helped each other out... but hard to know for sure!

Officially made and awarded Prussian awards were usually not marked for their silver content, which is why I believe the silver marked ones to be rather private pruchase than award crosses. Exceptions to this are known, of course. This is just in general. And it seems logical, too: no official state supplier would have fooled the state. The GOK guys know what they payd for, but a soldier buying a premium quality real silver cross would have prefered to have "written" on the cross it is real silver...

Okay, I'm asking the other way round. We agree the "FR" crosses are award types, right? What time period do you think they are from? If I had to guess, I'd say ca. 1915/1916, but as I'm not having one (better: some) in a complete group, I don't know. What do you think? Or (better:) does anyone have one with a documented group?

Uhm, but why discussing on know facts?

Chris, do you know Dr. Scharffenberg's article "Das Eiserne Kreuz von 1914 – Eine Geldgeschichte"?! It's published in Orden-Militaria-Magazin, Nr. 94, pages 13 to 18 from year 2000. I thought I even sent you the scans months ago, but may be wrong... It answers most of your questions raised here, or at least gives ideas that may be understood as answers...

I really love the Gronau group, but doesn't "Prussian only" mean the lack of other states' awards?

They were awarded to non-Bavarians definitely, but probably in lower numbers than Eks went to Bavarians.

Means he was likely a military doctor. All of them got the bronze medal.

Is there any serious reason they should be two different firms? If you compare to (officially made!) Prussian orders, you'll find tons of different marks - for just about two dozen (Berlin) firms!

Looks indeed like Austrian style ribbon bar, and is probably using Austrian made ribbon - 40 mm, I guess?

Guessing is what caused these bullsh** "maker list" I'm fighting for years now...