saschaw

Okay, then it's rather a 1st class, nice. You know, I'd like to add this at some time, when I got one for an affordable price, and adding something it shalt be the right one. Now thanks for that! With (according to H. Volle) just about 100 of the 1906 medal awarded to mostly very "special" persons (e.g. "soldiers in service in 1856 and still in 1906" ) there cannot be to many with just these three in 1906, can they? With your information I'd say this bar might be v. Froben's, but there may be some more officers with that trio - unlikely, but still possible. Thanks!

Looks pretty fine, I cannot find anything that bothers me. Well, the price might but I don't know what it costs... ;)

Bringing this thread up once more as well, as I recently came to mind I might have had a logical error here! This may well be a BZL3bX and then not a RAO4 but an Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen, a bar to a elderly NCO who got bumped up to (at least) Leutnant, then getting a Hohenzollern and a Zähringer. Not this would make it easier to identify him, but it had to be said as both does seem possible and with noone turning out with BZL3aX, this might now be pretty right?! :banger:

This thread back to top with two questions: the Zähringer on my medal bar had been fixed with yellow thread. Usually, this indicated a knight's cross 1st class. Sure this one wasn't? I guess it was, but here I was told it had rather been a 2nd class. and a question on Wild Card's von Froben bar: could someone please check in the rank lists, when he got his four orders about? I don't ask for the awarding dates, just if he got them in 1902, in 1906 or 1910. This question does have a special reason. Thanks in advance.

I found this little medal bar on eBay some hours ago and as it was offered as "buy it now" with a price that may be reasonable, so I just bought it. I know the pictures are anything but good, but could you though please give me some opinions on it? I think I won't pay it if it should be a bad bar as it was offered as "original grouping".

Hyazinth Lieber??? Was he killed in action in 1914 or 1915? I'm not sure about the name but was offered the documents of a Bavarian officer with BZL and MVO named Hyazinth who was KIA and had both those orders pretty early. The world is small, isn't it? By the way, the documents were Mr. Bretzendorfer's, but I don't know if he still has them or if they're yet sold. ;)

Christian L, is your's a "Milit?r-Ehrenzeichen II. Klasse" or a "Krieger-Verdienstmedaille"? I'm with Rick and would say those are wearing replacements from post 1918, Hungary not unlikely but might be Austrian, German etc. Especially if Christian's is a MEZ2 I'd say those are rather German than Hungarian made. I'm pretty sure those are not late war awarded examples as those were real silver threw all times from what I know.

Thanks for your opinions. In a German forum where I showed it too, someone told me that it was possible someone wore the MVO in the button hole - his great grand father did so well into the 30s! I knew that from the MMJO where it was common but wasn't sure about MVO. With that additional puzzle part I believe they do make a set but have been played with - at the medal bar's backing and anyhow with the long service awards - but no idea what there would match. The medal on the medal bar does not fit there in all our humble opinions, and with a hole in the ribbon I think there used to be a Wehrmacht LS award, most likely. If anyone wants to make guesses about that, please don't hesitate.

That is NOT a "Flandern medal" but the war memorial medal of the Kyffh?userbund, given to all members of the club who fought in the war - and it seems those were millions...

"L W V" stands presumably for "Landwehr-Verein", the M. for the city, well rather village. No chance to get to know which exactly, with thousands of villages with M. I guess it's more likely from Prussia. It hasn't Prussian but "Reichs" colors, but though an e.g. Bavarian or Saxon club would rather have used it's "own" state's colors for the ribbon.

It's weird but I "believe" in the bar, now more than before of course. Someone who won a non-combattant award wouldn't wear a combattant's ribbon with additional, useless swords, right? Well, Dincklage-Campe _did_. There are things that make no sense at all and though are good. This should not make Frankenstein bars legit, it's just for not condamming good, actually great bars too fast...

I saw that bar at the IWB in Stuttgart some weeks ago and didn't think much about it, the information you see with thousends of items offered just kills your brain - but when I sat in the car way back home and re-thought about it I didn't doubt anymore this was a fake bar. There, it was about 600,- Euro what would have been quite a bargain, wouldn't it? It's hard to find REAL big bars with pre war ORDERS...

Thanks Bernd. I just realized the swords on MVO ribbon are silver which suggest a lower rank than RAO4Kr and RAO3S. It looks good but I'm not sure about it. It may be a put together from good parts...? I don't know, sorry...

My gut likes this bar. The devices look - and presumably are - perfectly good, especially the crown is . The sewing seems fine to me, too. Stogierick explained what may be possible about the plain blue ribbon - swords missing, whatever the reason, or a peace time award worn stipidly. The empty RAO ribbon suggestst a 3rd class. Did they just mount no bow or were they worn without bow if the 4th class had a crown? I'm not sure about these issues, but what I know for sure is that the 4th class with the royal crown was still worn when higher classes were awarded, so this makes (almost) perfectly sense to me. Furthermore the combination looks to be "higher" than a Majors with RAO3S - should be Oberst to Generalmajor? I don't know when Generalleutnant a.D. was his rank, but that may be right. Couldn't someone check what awards Schnabel had and post it here roughly? Thanks in advance. PS: I'm not the seller, I just have a better feeling with it than you have.

Though I'm not 100% convinced the 2nd bar is a put together. When it was shown on an earlier thread, came we to this clue without any doubt?! Wasn't navy rather suggested from the "frack style" than from the combination? That's an very early Red Eagle order (meaning to a not too long served officer), as they were given rather to navy than to army. The long service awards, the Sileasian eagle, the Flanderncross and all that suggest navy, at least to me. A Frackspange for civilian wear though, of course. The 3rd one looks pretty much to be a modern put together from am-militaria or a similar seller, but I cannot prove it as I don't find it in my data base right now. Though here I'm quite sure it's "bad".

With the covered Wilhelmskreuz I was and am pretty sure it's an W?rttemberg officer's bar with FO and Brunswick merit order, both pre war peace time awards - and sold it as this. I hope I was indeed right and am very sorry if it should be something else... Right, you never know for sure, but it was the most likely and the one thing that made sense. Plus, if it's this it should be identifiable as the "foreign" awards to W?rttemberg's military pre 1914 are "done".

The W?rttemberg officer from #2 has a W?rttemberg Friedrichs order and a Brunswick merit order. He put the 1934 Ehrenkreuz ribbon above his W?rttemberg Wilhelmskreuz' ribbon - but please don't change that, I'd say it has something individual, though it was strange and stupid by the wearer. The last ribbon's for a Prussian 1897 medal. The foreign awards on the home made bar are an Austrian military merit cross 3rd class, an Ottoman liyakat medal and an Ottoman war medal (that's the socalled "Galipoli star"!). The bar with Baltic cross in #4 is a Godet made bar and I believe to be the bar from #5 to be navy. I'm missing a device "VOR DEM FEINDE" on one of my bars. If someone ever get's a lose one... Well, all in all nice bars, Timo.

Mike, that's not the long service award 3rd class, but the "Landwehr-Dienstauszeichnung II. Klasse". The 3rd class is made of iron with a silver frame, as KIR posted.

The ribbon bars...

Thanks for all your effort and input by now. I wonder if you'll come up with a name or if it rests impossible. I didn't realize the Saxon and Bavarian lists are incomplete published and so thought this was rather an easy one with the HOH... I like the bar and think it is as made, but I've got to say that much of the collection wasn't untouched. There were fine bars, put together bars and - worst of all - old bars that has been played with, many had a new red backing glued on it! I hate those fools and I'm sorry I have to call a man in his mid 80s a fool, but someone collecting for about 50 years, destroying wonderfull pretty bars is nothing else. I'll show one of the bars I'm talking about later. One that stunnes me for months. Well, I'll post it directly - and here it is.

Here's the medal bar set I mentioned in the Hohenzollern-Saxony-Bavaria bar thread. It has a W?rttemberg Friedrichs order's knight's cross IInd class, a wonderfull early piece by one of the jewelers, followed by an EK II, an Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer, a Bavarian jubilee medal for the army, a Prussian red cross medal 3rd class and a M1913 Prussian long service award IInd class. I'm not sure about the bar, if it's fine and untouched (don't think so), if it's a complete put-together (think this neither) or if it has been played with (most likely to me). The felt backing is a modern one, that for sure. In the collection there was as well a bunch of ribbon bars but I didn't ask the men what belonged together and what didn't - he would not have known that at all, given his "care" for the things. I found two bars (that make an apparently set) that are quite similar to this medal bar. I'm not sure but they might make a set, but there're some very strange discrepancies. At least one of the long service devices on the ribbon bars is wrong replaced, but I'm neither happy with the Prussian medal on the bar. The last position on the ribbon bar doesn't mind me much, a Silesian Egale might have been worn as a pin back but though with the ribbon on the bars - stranger things happened. No problem with the 1939 war merit cross as youngest of all awards. But: a big problem with the Bavarian MMO on the ribbon bar. Is it possible that was worn on the button hole, and is missing therefore on the medal bar? The bar seems to be Bavarian, though he wears the W?rttemberger in front of the EK II - very strange, isn't it?! As I said, I'm stunned on this for months and appreciate any help and ideas. That bars makes me going nuts.

No, that's the "Ehrenkreuz III. Klasse" of the princely Hohenzollern. There was no member's cross to that order but only to the royal Prussian - and the royal member's cross should have the black and white ribbon and another medaillon, with the eagle as the knight's crosses have. The swords look rather to be gilt but I'm not sure. Compared to the royal member's cross the principal HOH3X is somewhat common, isn't it about 17 vs. 1.000 awards? Well, still nothing too common. Pity the bar has no Z?hringer lion order, would look better with in our collection...

A close up of the more important part as I had to resize the other pictures hardly. The Albrecht is made by Glaser and has a "G", the MVO is that tighly sewn I cannot read the maker mark it might have. Looks like Hemmerle to me, but I'm not very good with that. Well, actually I don't care if it's Hemmerle or Weiss, the main thing is it's an original one - and has real gold medaillons...

Here's one more of my father's bars collection. This one came from the elderly's man collection we sold for him on eBay. The man was very lucky we did this effort for him and kindly sold us some of the nicer things for good prices. I'll show some of these things here by time. Here's a seven place medal bar with orders from Hohenzollern, Bavaria, Saxony and Austria. I think the combination's unique, with the principal Hohenollern being quite scarce. Should have been a Leutnant to Oberleutant at the war, but the long service award makes me wonder. Is that switched or might that be okay? By the way, it has a tag on the reverse saying it was sewn by "Fr. ACKERMANN, MILIT?RAUSR?STUNGEN, KOBLENZ/RH. BALDUINSTR.1". Is anything okay with the bar and does someone find the former wearer? I hope you like it, we do.

Thanks Heiko, I added those to my block list, although I'm actually not selling anything on eBay right now - but I might do again, and then not to those persons. On my list were by now all three known names of the "club", a certain guy from Vienna and some more I don't want to sell to...