Chris Boonzaier

Hi, Here you go, maybe the pin is not the original? it is a superd heavy piece, has nothing in comman with the usual DDr stuff quality wise.....

I dont collect DDR but this solid badge was of such a high quality I could not resist it... Anyone know what it is? Thanks Chris

The more I look, the more confused I get.... A simple disc with crossed rifles, no number, no letter. From what I can see, you either had company letter or Regt number... who wore a disk with just the rifles? Someone in an Inf division NOT belonging to the infantry? Thanks Chris

Another update, Bechuanaland and Algeria.... For the Harry's Africa and French colonial sections....

Hi, I have Dixmude-Bixschoote until October 1 then the South East edge of the Ypres Salient. The 415 left at the end of 1916 and joins the 212ID. Maybe between their time in the 204 and 212 they passed St Eloi?

The Minenwerfer Abteilung were done away with in September 1915 and after that there were MWK and Minenwerfer Battalions. Landwehr Div 44 was formed after this change.... That is something worth looking into, but I have to run off to work...

Hi, What background color would you expect to find on these? Is the Blue alright for 11th Korps? Thanks Chris

Indeed... because the official doc was supposed to come at a later date. Returning to the Langemak example, the VIII AK docs came quite some time later... EK2 awards to the VIIIAK were awarded on documents that were retroactively issued sometime after (maybe months after) March 1915. Then until 1917 all the units in the VIIIAK were issued with standard Korps level docs, in 1917 they started to issue documents on divisional level (15th and 16th Div). I assume when Langemak got his, there still were no official docs. I know for sure Oktober 1914 awards for members of the Korps only got dokuments sometime after March 1915. best Chris

Thank Ye :-)

Is it possible to identify the signature and say when he took over the regiment? Thanks Chris

But the subtle difference is that the letter there is an Abschrift signed by an Oberstleutnant and that the III B.A.K. did have its own docs. In the first two example, there were no preprinted documents used by the Authorities that signed these letters, anything they issued were tailor made, and the letters themselves were already signed by the highest authority. As I said, you have to take into account that WW1 was the Wild, wild west when it comes to how EK docs were issued. There is no hard and fast rule or rules. I don't want to seem like a know it all, but much of WW1 EK docs cannot be read, it is simply a "gut feeling" that comes with experience. I have had probably 1000 EK docs and or groups through my hands... my feeling is, for 1914, for awards at this level (and Langemaks), this was it. This letter with the Official doc to follow when they were finally issued (and as we know... they were not).

"Hauptmann Langemak: This is the "?bersendungsschreiben" and the congratulation of the General. "...ist durch Befehl seiner Majest?t ... verliehen worden ...", it has been awarded by his majesty; but not from the General (T?lff v. Tschepe u. Weidenbach). It could be, that the "Vorl?ufiges Besitzzeugnis" had been included separate. But this is definitely not an award document." Once again, WHO would then have issued an award document? Kaiser approves the award, Korps Kommander sends him the cross and a high quality letter informing him.... war should be won and official documents issued soon.... Our man is in a hospital in Germany... Who would then take the initiative to issue a document? Korps level printed documents are an absolute anomaly and I would say about unknown this early in the war. MAYBE his regiment would send him an Ausweis or VB confirming the award retroactively, but many regiments at this stage were still working just with Milit?rpass entries. *** It all goes back to the though that there was no official level to issue a Besitzzeugnis, Iron Cross award docs ARE the wild west, it was basically up to the unit involved. At this level it is very common to see it done with a letter like this. *** VIII was in fact one of the Korps that provided Korps level docs, they were however filled out at Regt level. They were also not given out in 1914 but later (retroactively).

Hi, An interesting discussion :-))))) We agree that there are no preprinted Kabinett docs? In fact, most of the higher commands seem to have been lacking them (especially this early) as they themselves did not have a lot of people to award EKs to (due to most of the awards being at Divisional level... and even there, it was mostly the Regt that issued the doc after the Div commander had approved the award). In the Pelkmann case, if the Kabinett did not have docs (Unless someone has seen one?) then the next level would have been Pelkmann's commander. So Pelkmann would get this paper, with the cross... THEN look for someone to issue him a VB to tide him over till the post war period where he could get an official doc? As for Langemak, the same thing, a direct award from the Kaiser, who did NOT issue documents of his own. Officer once again gets a Letter informing him of the award... What we should not forget is that 14-18 was the Wild West when it came to EK docs. I have groups where men were awarded the EK2, but the VB was issued 2, sometimes 3 years later. 1870 was easier, all after the fact. WW2 was easier, the commander basically signed the doc and authorized the award. In WW1 basically the general approved names on a list and it was up to the unit to decide when, where and how a document would be issued. Sometimes a Korps, like the IX Reserve Korps would issue docs for ALL the units within the Korps... http://www.kaiserscross.com/41815/77301.html But even in this case, he got his EK2 in 1914, the Ausweis in 1916 Sometimes the division issued the docs, sometimes the regiment... and sometimes a lowly Leutnant commanding an Abteilung signed the doc AFTER the General had either.. 1) Physically given someone a cross.... or 2) approved an award on the list. We can argue this way or that, but in the spirit of the way things were supposed to be in 1914, I believe these were the documents that informed men in 1914 that the kaiser had made a direct award to them..... (.... with the belief that the official award doc would arrive soon, as planned, right after the victory....) I have a pile of IX Reserve Korps awards and groups.... All the docs are made out about 2 years after the start of the war. From the groups you can see that the guys received just Milit?rpass entries or very rudimentary notes or Ausweises... until the Korps commander figured the end was not in sight and ordered documents for his men, most filled in retroactively. To know if the above two docs were just letters or were to serve as VBs, we would have to know exactly how his local command treated the subject of documentation. On the Subject of pelkmann, on the left of the doc, diagonally, is a remark "1 Eis. Kr. 1. Kl." which I assume means there is one enclosed. I have a group with a very rare award that has the same diagonal remark, included with this letter was a Besitz Zeugnis and on that was entered diagonally to show it was included. That was however in 1916 and I assume the preprinted docs were more comman at higher commands at this time. My thoughts being... why send Pelkmann a cross, but no Besitzzeugnis? Who was supposed to give him one then? A great discussion with food for thought....

Seems it is indeed so. I thought Generals arranged these things amongst themselves. Strange to see a full general getting a 2nd class award this late in the war. Best Chris

Another one from a later RK winner... This and the one above were the only EK1 docs in otherwise complete groups. (Although the Luczny group was split )

Maybe the best example... the text continues onto the back and is signed by the divisional commander....

Here is another.... You have the letter informing you of the award right from the Korps commander... is someone going to give you a document from a lower level confirming that? http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=15621&hl=langemak

Hi, I have a special interest in this kind of EK doc. They differ in a number of ways from a simple ?bersendungsschreiben. I have 650-700 WW1 EK docs (and groups), this particular kind of document just 4 times. Each is a large doppelblatt, and comes directly from a high office. My thoughts/Observations. There was no WW1 "Official" doc. There was initially a plan to issue official documents after the war, but this was canceled in early 1918 when the Kaiser announced all preliminary award documents should now be considered the "Final document" Most ?bersendungsschreiben announce they are forwarding the Cross and document and are from Clerks/Unit offices. The 4 documents in Question are 1) Personalized 2) Directly from a high office 3) Signed not by a clerk but by a high authority 4) Mention that the award was made and in 2 of the occasion include the citation. On all 4 it does not seem possible that there would be an office that would issue a Besitzzeugnis, they would in fact be less impressive than the doppelblatt recieved. In two of the groups I have all the docs are there, for the EK1 there is JUST a personalized Doppelblatt. (In their cases directly from their Divisional commander). I assume that was considered to be way better than a preprinted document the Regiment could issue. In relation to the man above, He gets this directly from the office of the Milit?r-kabinettes, we know there are no official preprinted documents from them... The question is... who would issue him a document? One of the ugly little "Metz" ones? It would be a bit of a joke next to the letter. At the Limit Pelkmann could have asked the Governor of Metz to issue him a Besitzzeugnis, but I honestly think these "Letters from above" were "it". Some examples to follow....

Nice little group.... Funny, you seldom see people today with the same mustache that general has.....

For those not into EKs... Can someone please tell me if this was for the 1st or 2nd class? http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=35561 I imagine because of his rank they would not have given him a 2nd class as a "starter kit"?

Hi, any idea what these happy dudes have been awarded?

It looks like they are welded together . I assume it feeds with 3 separate magazines into 3 chambers. Almost like 3 rifles tied together? Must be pretty heavy.

It cannot be in use nowdays, the question should be more along the lines of 1) Was this done with WW2 veterans in mind 2) Was this done as a fantasy item with WW2 vets and collectors in mind. Could WW2 vets have 1) Worn this on a uniform if serving with the BW 2) Worn this on veteran association jackets after the war. best Chris

Thank ye very much. Thanks quite some title and job description!

I know nothing about these but I assume he was getting the 1st class? This is my highest ranking doc with a full general der Arty.