Chris Boonzaier

I am hoping someone with a bit of WW2 interest will jump in, but even for a "non higher grade" collector, and an Imperial one at that, there are a few things that jump out. I notice the Zimmermann RK on page 457 identified to Deumer. I thought L/15 was accepted as Schickle nowdays, and has been for some time, it is missing from the LDO list which is a bit of an error to be making this late in the game. I would not spend my worst enemies hard earned money on the set of swords and diamonds pictured on 547. I dont have any diamonds kicking around, but refer to my trusty "the iron cross of 1939" by Gordon Williamson... I dont like the Diamonds on Geisslers page 548, or the stamps on the piece on page 510. But maybe some WW2 guys can chime in? For am imprial guy the book is really good, although the EK award doc is NOT for a white ribboned cross. Best Chris

Hmmmm... seems I am the only one with any book ... :-) I was looking through Geissler this morning while defending myself against the kiddies... it seems to have the "Herman Goering Grosskreuz" document in a dedicated section. I have not been following it, but this seems to be a disputed piece? Hardin is amongst the credits at the back. Seems also to be some rather questionable diamond and RK stuff. As i am not in the market for that its no big deal, the WW1 section is still good, but I would put a big caveat on this book for higher end WW2. Best Chris

or Eisenbahn reg I Berlin XXXXXX Hard to read

My eyes are old and tired... is there a name on the pin? Thanks Chris

Anyone have any ideas on this? Best Chris

Rekr. Depot Eisenbahn XX batln. XXXXX dont know what the XX is though

Is there any official thing we have that says Domed crosses were not awarded in WW1? In WW2 they were officially not allowed, but is this the case for WW1? I wonder this because a soldiers EK1, pinned on his chest by General XXX or whover must have had a certain value to the recipient, but often a group only has a domed cross in it. Can we assume the man got rid of his issued flat cross somewhere along the way? I would imagine, even if they had bought a domed cross, they would have kept the other one as well. I would really expect a company making things for private purchase to put their logo on, but all my 800 crosses are domed and have no company stamps at all... which is not great advertising. Of course, it is possible that all domed ones are private purchase, but I would be very interested to see anything official about this. Best Chris

"It is a known fact the Prussian Generalordenskommsission did order their EKs 1st class from Berlin makers only. This didn't change until the GOK was superseded by the Eisenbahnzentralamt in ca. mid 1917(?). They then ordered crosses not only from Berlin. " Here is a thought.... If KOs appreared around the time the Eisenbahnzentralamt took over.... could the stamp be related to a dept instead of a maker? From the amount of KO pieces, we are talking big industry here, not a hole in the wall backyard jeweller... Could KO be some kind of cooperative of artisans that did contract work? The village my wife came from did that with clothes all throughouth the 30s and into the 50s. Companies would bring the already cut cloth, some people just sewed sleeves, some did buttons etc... Maybe in 1917 the Eisenbahnzentralamt got tired of Jewellers and decided to move into the industrial age with mass production... having a foundry doing the cores, a Prägewerk doing the rims, and a number of firms putting them together... I would imagine within the Eisenbahnzentralamt that there was a department responsible for this? They must have had a name and designation... maybe the secret to KO is hidden there? Best Chris P.S. I think Klein and Quenzer is waaaaay too far fetched to be seriously considered.

Its 50/50... If you are the 10th guy to bring out a book on a subject, then you have 9 books to build your work on, can analyse all the errors made and benefit from all the comments posted about those books... You may not be more clever, but you should have benefited to the point where you dont need to make the same mistakes. Unfortunately there are those who dis the 1st guy for having made errors... Its kind of like the first guy being the Wright Brothers, and the 10th Guy being an F16... then you have some online keyboard commando going... "Hey, look at the old thing the Wright brothers made, why didnt they just make a jet??". You cannot apply what we "know" in 2012 to a book that came out in 2007, or 2002, or 1997... IMHO "The EK Books" have all been done by men with Noble intentions, There are errors, but not Malicious ones. This cannot be said for all collecting areas unfortunately. Best Chris

"Iron" Roland gave me a heads up about the Geissler Book. I really like the WW1 part, but it seems the Higher grade WW2 stuff needs to be checked before you use it as a reference. I assume they were not deliberate errors. The one error I found in Imperial is in an area that things are pretty grey anyway. Those in the WW2 area could maybe have been avoided. Errors in books are often acceptable and understandable IMHO, especially in the "Pre Internet" days. Everyone is cleverer 10 years later. Best Chris

Hi, what i am wondering is... how much more danger was artillery to soldiers in WW1 as opposed to 1870 1) On the battlefield itself 2) Around the battlefield. I suppose in WW1 even men resting 10km behind the front could be under constant fire, whereas in 1870, once you had left the immediate battlefield, you were probably not bothered by artillery that much. Best Chris

Hi Kay, Lets say everything up to 1918.... the prettiest and the ugliest.... Have a few ugly ones I will scan next week...

Hi Will Are you back home ?? Was the Gilt pouch belt badge just for officers? They are really expensively made!!

Well done guys, Glad everyone goes home happy :-)

I think it is difficult to compare books of the pre internet days to nowdays. It would be a mistake to say people can do a book nowdays just by collecting info they find online... but one thing is for sure.. you can certainly make contact with many people who can help you find the info, and you have the chance to sound out theories and thoughts with a wider range of people than in Pre internet days... To get the Info that Bowen did, all on his lonesome, using letters, telephone, train, plane and automobile is an achievement that would be unlikely be repeated today. An example, I think Iron Time 1 can be classed as "pre Internet" and Iron Time 2 as "internet Era", I have not seen a first edition in ages, but think the Author was able to use the Internet feedback to weed out fakes and get new items that he would otherwise not have had access to. It gives the "2010" Previtera a huge advantage over the "2000" Previtera, if anyone goes back into the archives of the various forums and sees what the level of discussion was back in 2001, compared to today where everyone has info at his fingertips, you can see what an effort it was to get a book together back then. Back in the day, Geissler 1st Version of his book, Previteras, and Gordon Williamsons book on the 1939 Iron Cross, all can hold their heads high for what they achieved, they were all done before folks could take advantage of the net and can still hold their own today. I would be curious as to how much use Geissler made of Online contacts to get his second edition out. It apparently has a number of errors in the 3rd Reich sections, but I am not really up on those. His list of people credited in the back seem to be largely "old timers" including people like Angolia... It is a great book, I hope to get some time this weekend to really get into it.

I am wondering something.... If Sascha is right, and these KOs are late war... it may be that the bulk of early war were the 800 from various makers and KO came in later... And here is what I wonder... as the KO have various rims, cores and hinges... could it be that they were not a maker at all? It is of course all supposition, but maybe there were delivery problems, maybe domed crosses were getting on the kaisers nerves, maybe there were ugly looking crosses without siilver rooms, and the KO (Kaiserlichen Ordenkanzlei, Königliche Ordenskanzlei whatever) contracted out to different makers, approved crosses with a KO stamp and delivered them to the front... like a LDO quality control board? Just a wild thought...

If anyone has any to add? Thanks Chris

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A small selection of "800" stamped pinbacks...

I just recieved the new Geissler book. I wont have time to go through in detail till next week, but my first impression is WOW! Just paging through I see an error or two, but that aside, it is for me "THE " general book on the EK... I am very impressed. It seems to be a book based on long years of observation, as opposed to deep research, but that is just my opinion. If I was to have one General book on the EK on my shelf, this would probably be it. Its not tailor made to exactly what I need, and a few of the things shown could IMHO have been left out... but all in all, its great! And for EUR99 its a really good price.

one of the EK1 variations

three

second

Hi, As part of the book project I was scratching in my EK2 drawer and found 5 KO EK2s, of which 3 seem to be different. I only have one KO EK1, but there are variations there as well. Lets see some of what you guys have?