Chris Boonzaier

From Ebay... the seller was too lazy to try and see where the places were... The Bezonvaux Werk...

Hi, its the only one of ZARP. The rest are mainly Boers. Best Chris

2 men from the mounted police.

I have two sensational Boer war albums... one of the pics is this one :-)

Years of looking.... every now and then a bit of luck....

they just keep following me home!!!!!!!!

I want to suggest we all agree to disagree. I think our major difference is one of "words" I am sure if we all met at a table and there were a 1944, 1951, 1957 and 1998 sets of EL were on the table we would agree to the cash values of the pieces in front of us. If for me the 1951 is a postwar original because it was worn by a vet,or a postwar preofficial 57 version to Prosper, or a postwar copy to Gordon or a fake to Uwe, I am sure we would agree amongst ourselves that it has a certain phaleristic and monetary value and the 1998 bling-bling was really the only one that we could trash without a second thought. Is it a bikini wax, bikini shave or landing strip? I dunno, but I am sure we all agree that whatever you call it... it be nice!

Hi, I think an important differentiation must be made here. The 57 awards are not official decorations of the Bundesrepublik but 3rd Reich decorations in a form that could be officially worn in the Bundesrepublik. Once again semantics rears its head. The Vichy decorations did indeed replace previous awards for 39-40 but were also kept on the books for subsequent awards... this is not the case for the 1957 German awards. Best Chris

Hi, the "award period" may be where we diverge... Award period may have ended in 1924, but it did not become illegal to produce, seel and wear them. How about an EK1 made in 1925 on the same dies used in 1924? If it was worn by a Reichswehr officer I doubt any collector would loose a second before buying it. Even if it were made on different dies, with your statement you are condemning maybe 50% of WW1 EKs in collections to the schmuddelecke. I think we agree it is not realistic? I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever argue that a period wartime original set of oakleaves had the same value as a set made after the war, but in the same way a set of oakleaves made in 1957 is JUST as valid as an EK1 made in 1929 and worn by a Reichswehr officer. Why is the 57 set of oakleaves dirt and the EK1 a "fantastic screwback " for big bucks on a dealers site? Anyway, its late. Gnight folks....

You guys want more? The patch worn by US Soldiers on the right sleeve for units they were in combat with... If a guy served in the XXX Infantry in Vietnam and the unit was disbanded in 1978. He needs the badge for his new uniform so he orders one from a govt supplier and sews it on.... is he now wearing a copy or an official patch??? Best Chris

Hi folks, Its me again :-) This thought... "For me "made for soldiers" and "made for collectors" is where "original" and "copy/fake/garbage" are split." maybe needs a bit of reworking.... You know where the REAL problem here is? It is indeed semantics.... and aggravated by the fact that each little internet community has its own lingo. You see it all over.... Remember when only 10 people knew what a "rounder" is? Now EVERYONE knows... or do they? OK, lots of folks do... but it gets more arcane than that... Ever wandered into a thread and wonder what the hell a "Backtoed army para badge" is? and you feel to shy to ask what the hell "Daisy seed panzer" or "5 dotted high fleet" or "droop beaked hollow punched 3rd pattern sub badge" or the "two thread twist afrika cufftitle" is? Ever see the incomprehension on the cyberface of 2 collectors when you go into a thread and ask "ummmm... guys? Whats a "3rd pattern chicken toed crooked 4th leaf from the top non maker marked infantry assault badge" and one of the guys posts "Duh! you MUST be a newby? You aint never heard of the chicken toed Infantry assault badge variation ?!?!?!?!?".... and you scroll up the thread and see they had just invented the term 10 minutes before????????? The world is biiiiiiiiiiiiig. Even if Uwe, Gordon, Prosper and I solve the worlds problem and agree on what "original" is..... in a weeks time someone will discover this thread and say "what the F you guys talking about???? For me Original is......." Solving the worlds problems is not getting people in a closed circle to agree with you when there are still 8 billion people not in on the secret! It is easier to agree to disagree on definitions, unless you are selling something then it is up to the buyer and seller to find a comman definition. :-)

Another BDOS anomaly.... Lapland shields and Kurland armbands... happily accepted in BDOS magazines as original. EVEN examples possibly made after the war in POW camps. Using their own definition, any of these made after the war should be considered fake. Best Chris

Maybe we are tripping over the word "original" Speedytop is talking about "original" as defined by the BDOS, I think "original" as defined by a soldier. I have about 3 sets of my own medals. Period awards and about 2 sets made up over the years. I can send you all the tin with as many books as you want and you can tell me which are "original" and which are "copies"? ;-) For me "made for soldiers" and "made for collectors" is where "original" and "copy/fake/garbage" are split. True you can do a further split of "original" into "period original" and "less desirable later original" if you want. Truth of the matter is... we live in a free world, what ORIGINAL is is not decided by the LDO, OMSA or BDOS, it is decided by the individual collector. We should simply agree to disagree. I like brunettes, you make like Blond and Gordon as a jock probably likes Ginger haired lassies... its simply a matter of taste. Here is a BDOS anomaly... about 10 years ago I called S+L to order a 1957 RK, EL and EL and swords. Did they sell them to me? No. Why not? They had none in stock, it was to expensive to make a one off for me any anyway, did not sell directly to collectors. So... how did you go about getting them? Well, S+L explained to me... you contacted Werner Sauer and ordered one from him. When he had enough orders he would contact S+L and they would whip some up for him... that way you could get an official 57 RK and teeleaves. I knew Sauer and bought some EL and EL and swords from him as well as some 57 bars for the EK1. anyone see the irony? You want to get original 57 pattern badges from S+L then you have to order them from a man who orders in bulk for collectors. And he was at the time president of the BDOS.

"Alle verliehenen Exemplare sind Originale. Darüber hinaus bezeichnet man als Originale solche Exemplare, die im Verleihungszeitraum im Auftrag von berechtigten Personen hergestellt worden sind oder werden und welche die wesentlichen gestalterischen Merkmale von verliehenen Exemplaren aufweisen." it is too complicated to be brushed off with such a simple definition. This may be seen as a valid definition for countries where regimes are deposed, or countries like England where a soldier gets one copy of his medal. In Countries like France or the USA where a soldier where a soldier can buy himself 2, or 5, or 50 of any medal he is entitled to... I dont think the rule as you post it applies. 2 examples... 1) Take a thing like the US Vietnam service medal. Apply "Verleihungszeitraum" to this. If a US soldier today was to walk into the PX any buy himself a Vietnam medal from an official US Govt supplier to rebuild his bar lost in a fire... THAT would be a copy... but if some vet applied retroactively to get the award and it was exactly the same as the one the soldier bought in the PX, THAT would be original? 2) A French soldier is given the diploma for his Colonial medal with the bar for "XXXXXX", has no interest awards. 40 years later he goes out to Arthus Bertrand or Paris mint and buys himself the medal (as he should have done 40 years before)... that medal is NOT original? To paraphrase a German collector... "original are things made for a soldier to wear officially"... This would include WW2 made 14-18 pieces and EL made after 1957 (as horrible and undesirable as they may be, I dont have and dont want any and would in noway value them anywhere near wartime pieces).

Indeed.. but there the bag of snakes becomes a can of worms..... Lets say Joe Blow was awarded a "65" EK1. He put a lot of sentimental value on it and bought himself an unmarked cross, leaving his "65" mint in a box at home. That "65" mint in a box... I would Loooooove to have. That unmarked copy that he wore at Stalingrad, Tobruk, Monte Casino, Normandy, in the Bulge, Last days in Berlin, hidden in his cavity for 3 years in Siberia then wore for a year as a mercenary in the Congo....would do it for me as well :-) I think given the amount of groups that have unmarked "extras"... they are difficult to dismiss and "ugly sisters" ...

That is indeed a bag of snakes... :-) That would mean that many of the Period 39-45 pieces in our collections are copies then. Have 2 EK1s in a group, and the one the soldier bought is a copy.... but in all probability you will never be able to tell which one it is :-) This is complicated by awards where a soldier could buy them WITHOUT the LDO mark. My wifes grandfather bought an extra destroyer badge, a schwerin piece.... technically a copy then :-) this is a topic that deserves a thread of its own :-)

Just a thought here.... and totally dropping the "57 version" argument.... Just as a 14-18 EK made in 1941, or even 1952 by S+L was still a late production official medal, not a "copy" (not even a "57 version").... could one not argue that EL or EL with swords made by S+L in 1958 were arguably "original but late production"? As devils advocate, these were items allowed to be worn in their original form by serving members of the army. As official govt suppliers were still selling them, they COULD be considered to be as original as their war period counterparts ;-) Technically they are as legitimate as an LDO made 14-18 iron cross.... or is my logic wrong here? Using Speedy's logic, should all our LDO production WW1 awards be considered "copies" :-) ?????

Probably the best account in English out there about the fighting at Verdun in 1917 up on the site today, as well as a Punitive Expedition by Harry as he takes us to the Taita Hills... http://www.kaiserscross.com/152301.html

Hi, it is unlikely they were ever worn. If I understand, the regiment had an anniversary, things like this were given out as keepsakes to soldiers and vets attending the ceremony, and a day later they were relegated to the bedside drawer as business returned to normal. Simple onepiece copies are easy to make today.

I would love to see the disk on the 1st class one. From the front it looks like a fake screwdisc. These regt anniv badges were keepsakes, i doubt anyone would make a hole in their jacket to wear one. I bet EUR5 that these were ribbon only keepsakes and some faker used a casting of an origibnal to make a screwback. best Chruis

There seems to have been a large market in France for uniface medals because tens or hundreds of thousands of vets had their medals mounted in Frames with big service certificates. Often this was a second set of medals while the originals were kept to be worn. To make the mounting in the frame under glass easier the backs of the medals were sometimes removed (eg. on the CDG). I assume the uniface were easier to mount and were often used in frames.. Best Chris

My less than minimal latin translates this (adjusting it for the branch of service) "Shame on those who think we are stealing their pay!"

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Only EUR1100 on buy it now!

Are you sure thats a wound badge?