ekhunter

My opinion is the Grand Cross is higher, and I think this is the way it was supposed to be in the hierarchy order. Had the war continued, some more os w/d in gold may have been awarded, but I doubt any more Grand Crosses would have been awarded.. If I recall correctly, only 7 Grand Crosses were awarded in WW I. Several more men than 7 were awarded the Pour le Merit. The Knight's Cross essentially took the place of the Pour Le Merit, and subsequent oakleaves, etc. To answer your other question, and once again my opinion, but it had to be Rudel. Goring earned his Grand Cross by his connections to Hitler, initial success from military campaigns that he planned, and his own reputation from the Great War (Pour le Merit). Rudel earned his on the battlefield. I think you ask anyone and they would say that what Rudel did, and how he did it, he had the respect of all, and earned it, unlike Goring. Lastly, you could win the Knight's Cross w/o recieving the German Cross.

Scary is right, but not if you know what to avoid. You can go to MCF or WAF and look at examples of Floch's and read about their origin. In a Nutshell, Floch is a man who made or makes repro Iron Crosses. Their is more than enough reading material available about him. I believe most us us have been Floched once or twice somewhere along the line..

George it's no reason to apologize for I don't think you haven't troubled anyone. We've all been there. Very few in this field have gone through time w/o getting burned somewhere along the way. I can show you a Cave Creek Special or a sunburst Flock I got burned on, that's just to name a few. It's the nature of the beast, but it's part of it, and is the beauty of this forum and others. You can have something checked out before you buy it if you are not sure. The books don't always get it right. I've got a L/63 Gold Wound badge to prove that point, and I imagine you could find a few "Rounders" out there that, once again, were in a book as legit. Keep it going, real Deschler's are out there, just keep looking and reading. Russel

K.A.G.'s with that type core are getting really hard to find. Once again, that is a nice cross!

I agree with Bill about the pin, hinge, clasp. Definately not Deschler.

THat was cheap for that cross! These are almost impossible to find these days. I've seen and handled five in person in 20 years, and I have 3 of them now. Thanks to many of y'all, we now know that several sit in collections out there, and maybe, just maybe, they might come on the market again one day. I've decided to make a video tape for my wife and daughter of my collection with descriptions and prices of each. If, or should I say when something happens to me and if my daughter doesn't give a damn about the crosses, then I guess they would hit the market while I am rolling over in my grave. I know some of those SNAKES, I mean "dear friends"of mine would never come to my house after I am gone and offer my wife well below market value for my crosses. HAA! One of those guys just came to mind. I better hurry up on that video tape! Seriously, I hope some hit the market, maybe some will just get tired of looking at them. Hint; Joe!

I'm late on this discussion, but I believe that Bill's first example is a Deumer. The crown on the core lacks the detail, but this can be due to wear and tear of the core over time. However, IMHO the hinge, clasp and pin are distinctly Deumer, even down to the way Deumer tapers the tip of the pin. it does lack the distinctive "pigtail" clasp, that many look for, but not all of the Deumer's had this either. Also, the clasp, being higher up from the bottom, is very similiar to the cased one that one Detlev had for sale. If I were lucky enough to be buying it, I would assume it was a Deumer....Just MHO. Russel

I love these pillow-back crosses from AWS. I love the finish and pin on Joe's. Not quite a needle pin, something a little more. Joe, I don't have one like this one, but wish I did, if for any reason you ever want to move it, please don't forget me.

This is a prinzen spange with square 5, thoughts on this one? [attachmentid=46684] [attachmentid=46685]

I don't really collect these, but did have these 2nd class spanges in my collection - any thoughts to share on these medals? [attachmentid=46682][attachmentid=46683]

Glenn - See attached photo ... is the one on the left like the one you are talking about? [attachmentid=46680]

Great photo, really shows how the wear and tear could take place, amazing that more crosses aren't in worse shape.

I love these crosses. I have a pillow back AWS with, I think, the pin you are talking about. I'll try to post later.

Good possibility. What would cause wear at all four of the arms? I have one that is worn at all four arms on the entire surface. I'll see if I can post it tonight. I'm thinking a lot of wear against maybe leather straps with buckles over a long period of time. I don't know, but very interesting theory.

How true! You must be talking about early 80's. I had a chance once to buy a box full of 2nd classes, no ribbons, at $20 a pop, must have been 100 in there. I was mostly into Lugers then and passed. Stupid me. The prices on the rarer crosses have gone through the roof. Crazy field we are in, rare to find a steal anymore, but sometimes! However, I think these are the best times because of the Internet, it is like a show everyday, unfortunately, you got to pay to play.

Joe, I was actually looking at the one from Detlev and then went back and looked at your 1914 L/12. I probably should have posted this thread in the other Iron Cross Section. I love yours, and I started actually talking about how much I like yours, forgetting it was yours. Got a newborn at home, still in Zombie mode. Long night last night! Anyway, these are rare!

That's a lot of money now, but since you just don't ever see these, then what will one have to pay if one becomes available in say 5 years? I don't know. They obviously don't last too long when offered at that price. I once said I would never pay over $100.00 for a nice uncased 1st class (TR or Imperial). Unfortunately I passed on a lot of great medals in the 80's that would cost at least twice as much as that now. I don't have one (Junker) either, as these are rare birds, and would really like to have one, especially in that good of shape. I guess it boils down to how bad you want something. Anyway, the search continues! Good to hear from ya! Russel

Detlev had a 1914 1st class marked L/12 and made during the Third Reich that sold this morning. It was Sweet! Once again I overslept.

This is a so called "waffle back" or "pillow back" pinback by AWS. Very very rare! With the "needle pin". If I didn't have one exactly like this one, I would be bidding and salivating all over my keyboard. Well, actually I'm still salivating a little bit. You usually don't see rare (real) stuff like this on E-bay. You can find a picture of mine on MCF in the Imperial section under "Pillow backs"'. Good luck on this one! This would make a great addition to anyone's collection.

Do you believe in the Muffin man? A lot of thought went into the fact of rusting the front, while polishing the back. Some fakers can be really stupid.

I agree. The quality just isn't there for a wartime piece, and post war you would have to have an oakleaf center, not swaz on your decorations.

Thanks Joe. I had heard of Helmut's discovery and connection to the story. The version I had heard was that he had gone to Russia to get the case of crosses from someone who had contacted him, but from whom is the question? We all know how stories go, though. So if anybody knows "the rest of the story" as Paul Harvey likes to say, then please feel free to chime in. If only someone had bought them all at the time for $200.00 a piece. One would be wealthier and wiser, for they go for much, much more now!

What? Doesn't everyone have at least this many 2nd classes. I wish!. I've seen this photo before, somewhere, with the same Russian museum story. It would be a sight to see. They all look rather minty too, at least from a distance. While this may be a little "off topic", but does anyone know where the so called "Russian Horde" of minty Mayer's came from? I know the story about how they made their way back onto the market, but I'm curious how they made their way to Russia, I"m curious if it was some high ranking Russian officer, that maybe took them from a storage facility, or what? I mean, that many crosses, same manufacturer, all mint! To the best of my knowledge, all of the ones that I've seen have been mint and have been cased. Any help on the story will be greatly appreciated.

Tom, great photos for comparison. Some of these differences in the cores are quite a bit when you really look at them and think about it.

Good point Dave! I concur. The wartime crosses were manufactured for at least a 5 year period, and as we all know, things change. I think several manufacturers changed their cores over the years for one reason or another. AWS, for one, used different cores over the years. Why, I don't think anybody really knows the exact answer to that one. One can look at a WWII cross and usually at a glance, say it was this manufacturer, or that one. The Imperial Crosses are just a little harder. These variances, however so slight sometimes, is why the Imperial crosses are so unique, and in my honest opinion, are much more fun to collect.