Dietrich

Chris, could you please help me since I have no idea what you mean: - what is a new typ - what do you consider the original S-Type? What are the 3 known examples? Thanks, Dietrich

No, not at all. The question just popped into my mind. Nothing specific or hidden. Just a thought. I only wonder why there is no mark on Hartmann's piece. Was there one on Rudel's? I read about it in one book. I don't know and I'm not saying something did. Just a thought and maybe even a very off-base one. And I want to state for the record that I have no knowledge about theses pieces at all. I just felt compelled to post the Hartmann piece since I had it scanned during my RK research and I hope this helps the research. Dietrich

But the Niemann example has a maker mark - the Hartmann doesn't?

Just as I was trying to qoute you it disappeared. The badge did not come from the Hartmann family but from Hartmann directly, cased - with all the other awards and documents he got, including the Oakleaves with Swords and Diamonds. I know it is sometimes hard to believe that something might be real and genuine (especially such an award) but just try to do it this time. If you are looking for a genuine example, this is one! Another question worthwile asking is why Goering would sub-contract the manufacture of an award to a foreign country - at least before the Anschluss? Maybe Stuebiger was not the supplier? No maker marks other than the gold content on the reverse - and no cut-outs on the outer wing frame.

I know the owner and the circumstances. Here's another one Detlev Niemann just sold not to long ago for (I think ) 60,000.- Euros.

True, of course. But I know for a fact that the Hartmann is 100% genuine. Can we say that about the other ones with the same certainty? Furthermore, we do not know whether we need to account for manufacturers deviations.

They are all different to the Hartmann badge.

The piece of Erich Hartmann has no maker mark at all.

You are absolutely right.

Nick, I'm sorry if I came across wrong. I should have said "obvious to me". I don't know what you collect but I can asure you that I would have no idea about the subject. That is the beauty of a forum: the collective knowledge and not the revolving around one person. I realized fairly early that it is impossible for me to 'know it all" and concentrated on a fairly narrow subject. Dietrich

He says that one original example is in the named museum in England. But no matter what he says or writes - still no original Godet. Even Mr. Nimmergut should have been able to count the dots on the sword hilts. In this case 8. However, all Godets have 7...

Sorry, but this is a copy!

It is clearly visible that the cross is a Juncker!

Sorry! I'm still a freaking foreigner. No bad intention, just a mix-up!

Maybe my remark was not quoted correctly in the sense of "Europe". I certainly can only speak for Germany and there it IS extremely tough if not impossible w/o serious connections or a very, very good reason. One might always be borderline "nazi" when putting up such a request.

There are numerous threads like this at WAF, about the Rounder and about S&L and other controversial things. None have been erased or stopped in infanity. Some have been edited, yes. But only the 'improper language' and insults. Maybe is was different in earlier days - I can only speak for the time since I'm a co-moderator there. I have never ever erased or manipulated a thread. And neither did George. But I respect what you are saying. Sometimes certain things reflect on a person but they shouldn't. I don't think we should judge people by the (voluntary or unvoluntary) company they might have or had in the past but rather by their own deeds and actions. .. et cum spirito tuo

Since the chapter for the S&L is mainly done I can tell you that this is exactly what I have done. Presenting the A and B Types, presenting the flaws, presenting the possibilities, giving my viewpoint and other possible scenarios for the reader to decide. I have and will maintain this approach thru out the whole book. I will not postulate my viewpoint in this matter as gospel. And Thank You for the best wishes. Really appreciated.

Prosper is absolutely correct. Don't forget, S&L is still producing the highest German order, the Bundesverdienstkreuz, and they would be stupid to disclose to anybody that they produced 'swastika items' after the war, after 57 and even into the 80's. It would seriously destroy their business.

The only thing I have done so far with S&L is test one 935 (NOT 935-4) under SEM. The silver is 935 grade and the paint composition checked out with pre May 45 paint. There was nothing unusual at all. Lending of pieces was not a problem so far. Never. There is no removal of metal or paint with SEM and only a miniscule part with FTIR. No medals have been or will be harmed. I have a student working till June of this year in the SEM labratory to test a multitude of crosses (most EK's) to create a material database. There will be the occasional Knights Cross tested also. If S&L used the same paint up till let's say 1957 and even beyond there's nothing to prove. If the Rounder fakers would have used old paint we would still not know.

Now that is a good one! Go ahead! What do you think?

No, old chap, I did not! You asserted (wrongly) that the delete button was pressed several times. This was not the case. I don't know whether you will understand it but I give it a try. Maybe you will understand since you were for quite some time the second man at MCF and you should know basic procedures: If somebody has been suspended by the Administrator I didn't think and I still don't think that it would be appropriate as a moderator of that forum to post for the just supended member. The more so if that member send materail unasked and creates a big fuzz about it later. So Dr. Hansen contacted Peter Wiking and he posted for him. By the way, I suggested that to him via e-mail! If I would be such an evil man as you try to portray me desperately, wouldn't you think the post would be still standing ???? Or would even be up for a second? That is of course flat out wrong. He was suspended because of his E-bay sale (here and at WAF) and subsequently banned for calling all kinds of people names and for registering under two more false accounts. But you could not know that since you couldn't follow that thread, I guess. But a lot of people did and it is still in the Association area. To suggest that the post by Peter Wiking was somehow altered is again flat out wrong. Dr. hansen might have changed/refined his findings later on but nothing has been changed at WAF. Another unsupported allegation. It is understandable that Dr. Hansen was and is still bitter and this bitterness has been expressed in multiple threats he started at MCF because of this experience. Now we have to take evrything he says as the full truth and everything PK says also? I venture to say that this is not so and a lot of people here know that. too I find it astonishing that Keating, after leaving MCF, still drags his former field of activities into other fora and - more interesting - presents Dr. Hansen (who was banned from MCF at one time) as the ultimate bearer of the truth. But who could honestly suspect that he would say that he was banned because of his E-bay sale? But for the 'ultimate RK debate' this is all inconsequential. It just has a certain entertainment value and I guess we (or more specifically I) will hear this for a very long time. Fact is and will be that: - his findings were posted at WAF, unaltered - they are still there for everybody to see and read - the Rounder is a fake and Dr. Hanson did a decisive step in discovering this Everything else is drama for people who strive on drama! So tell me, are we done with S&L? Is it now "who told what, when and who was supressed, suspended, mistreated time". Before you say that I don't like this topic, I clearly admit so. Why? Because debate about lies, rumors, allegations are always unpleasant. The more so if one is not as good as other people at that game. I rather stay with facts.

Would you care to retract it then?

Could you elaborate please?

Absolutely untrue! Dr. Hanson was 'suspended' at that point in time and could not post. His findings were posted by Peter Wiking and can still be found here: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ghlight=Rounder The Dr. Hansen's suspension was lifted to explain the E-Bay sale and during this process happened to what Stogieman eluded to and Dr. Hansen was banned, at WAF and here also. It was NOT beacuse of the Rounder!

See, there's a difference! I would bet a $ 1000.- on a flawed A-type. I trust my research. Sure. And I have seen a lot of things from Klessheim that are real. The Westpoint medals as an example. And other things.. No! Why? Because I will not drag some people into this debate and maybe let their honesty be questioned. Just leave it like I said: I believe it. Okay, the Rounder again. Oh well ... However, there are ton's and ton's of good provenance and some of it has to do with S&L, Godet, Klein and so on. Sure, there is fake provenance and always will be. But if you work on something and you approach from different sites it just might shake out. So far, it did! At least for me!