Dave Wilkinson

Jeff, The uniform you have would have been worn latterly on formal occasions only. Up until the mid seventies it would have been worn on the street with the addition of revolver holster/belt etc. However, the subsequent rise in terrorism in Northern Ireland saw it being replaced by more practical garments, ballistic vest, sweater etc. such as that shown in the photos you mention. Dave.

"Nearly every County Force has it's own Musum and proudly displays it's history - why should the Metropolitan Police - who started modern Policing in 1829 , see it's treasures being left in boxes to deteriorate." Mervyn Alas, this is not the case. Most of the police museums which did exist (and there were very few) have now closed due to a lack of either finance or lack of premises. Whilst I am an avid police historian I take the view that it is not part of the remit of any police force to maintain a museum. Arguably, most senior police officers of today are interested (quite properly) in what is going to happen tomorrow or next week and not what happened in the past. We have a national army museum and an imperial war museum and even a national railway museum. Why don't we have a national police museum? It is not for individual police forces to set up and maintain their own and to use police funds in the process. That cannot be justified in the current financial climate, indeed its doubtful if it could be justified at any time. Police forces exist to proving a policing service nothing else. The task is one (in my opinion) for central government. Dave.

No doubt someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I am fairly certain that the Garda Siochana has never used the rank of Chief Inspector. Dave.

Jock, In the UK police officers aspiring for advancement are required to take examinations. Firstly for promotion to Sergeant and secondly for promotion to Inspector. Advancement beyond that is on merit (and often whether your face fits). However, passing the examinations does not mean automatic promotion! I knew two Constables during my service who were qualified for promotion to Sergeant and Inspector. But both, completed their service as Constables. One in particular took and passed the examinations simply to show his bosses that he could do so, but stressed that he had no interest in advancing any further. The second, although able to pass the examinations was totally incompetent. In fairness to him, he knew his own practical limitations and again did not seek advancement. In the UK we do not promote Police Officers simply because of their long service, we require a little more than that. Dave.

Peter, To add to the confusion, you have to consider whether the negative (if there was one) has been reversed prior to publication. I've noticed that this is frequently done (not on this forum) giving the impression that the medals are worn on the wrong side. We're probably better leaving it there otherwise we will get ourselves totally confused! Dave.

Jeff, Then the insignia above the shoulder title would consist of Bath stars, and or Crown and in the case of the Commissioner, his Deputy and Assistants, crossed tipstaves within a wreath. In addition the last three mentioned ranks would wear appropriate gorget patches on each lapel. Below those ranks the Crowned Kenya Police lapel badges would be worn with the lions facing inwards towards the throat of the wearer. Many (but not all) British Colonial police forces adopted the same rank insignia as worn in the UK. The fact that it is a bush jacket suggests use by a Gazetted senior officer as opposed to a lower rank. Dave.

Rod, Thanks for your reply. The original question was asked by 1314. He wanted to know what the medal was that is on the LEFT side. I guessed that those of the right would be awarded by the Australian Government and suggested that those on the LEFT would be awarded by non-Government organisations. Incidentally, you have a very nice collection of Australian police insignia! Dave.

In the UK medals/ribbons worn on the left of tunic by the military and police would be those such as the Royal Humane Society, Liverpool Shipwreck & Humane Society, RSPCA and similar. Dave.

Jeff, Chrome plated shoulder titles "Kenya Police" would be on the bottom of the epaulette and above would be Bath stars/Crown depending on the rank of the wearer. However, this could differ depending upon whether the jacket was pre. or post the Colonial period. Dave.

It is my understanding that the Met. Commissioner, the Deputy and the Assistant Commissioners upon appointment loose any "Constable" only powers including those relating to arrest. This was certainly the case during the period when they were ex officio Justices of the Peace, it being incompatible for a Justice of the Peace to also be a Constable. Mervyn's comment "...having come through the ranks they are most certainly Police Officers with a power of arrest", is largely meaningless if on appointment to the ranks mentioned, legislation removes those powers from them. I have always found this forum to be very informative and a very good source of information. That said, I sometimes wonder how accurate that information is. I believe it should be so, otherwise readers will be mislead. I will set myself a task and get to the bottom of this Met. Commissioner business once and for all. There seem to be varying differing opinions in respect of his constitutional position i.e. Is he the UK's most Senior Police Officer, does he hold the "Office of Constable" and another "does he or doesn't he" still carry a silver token! Various individuals (including myself) give their views but those on the sidelines reading these comments will still scratch their heads and ask "Well, that's interesting but who's right?" As a retired Merseyside Police Officer, I'll contact the current Commissioner, Sir Bernard (former Chief Constable of Merseyside) and I'll ask him if he would be kind enough to give me answers to the questions posed. I'll let you know what he says. Mervyn, here in the UK Watch Committees were abolished in 1974 (nearly 40 years ago) when the Hull City, Bradford City, Leeds City and Birmingham City Police forces ceased to exist.

Mervyn seeks to set out a "seniority structure" which is in effect non existent. It is a fact that we don't have one senior police officer in England and Wales, we have 43 of them. Another fact which you have wrong is that the Met. Commissioner ceased to be appointed by the Home Secretary many years ago. He is appointed by the Queen upon the recommendation of the Metropolitan Police Authority. I have checked archive copies of the Police & Constabulary Almanac stretching back to 1942 and can tell you that the Met. Commissioner etc has been a member of ACPO since its formation and before that was a member of its predecessor organisation "The County Chief Constables Club". I am not sure that the rank insignia is particularly significant. The City Commissioner uses the same insignia as the Met. Commissioner yet the City Chief has a force which is smaller in strength than any of the provinces. A further relevant point is that niether the Commissioner nor his Deputy are attested police officers, so on that basis I fail to see how they can be regarded as the most "Senior Police Officers in England & Wales".

"The Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police is the most senior officer in England and Wales - he is followed by H. M.'s Chief Inspector of Constabulary and third in seniority is the Deputy Commissioner. Chief Constables rank below these officers." Mervyn, I'm sorry but you are wrong. This is a common misconception amongst members of the public and the media. The Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis is of equal rank to the provincial Chief Constables. The Deputy Commissioner is of equal rank to the Deputy Chief Constables. You are even further adrift with the Inspectorate of Constabulary. They have in the past been retired police officers who on appointment become civil servants. In recent years several have been appointed without previous police experience. They do not have any police powers and cannot and never have been able to give directions or orders to the Chief Police Officers Indeed, the current Chief Inspector of Constabulary has never even been a police officer. Their role is to advise the Home Secretary and to inspect and report on the efficiency of police forces in England & Wales. So, they fall completely outside your supposed rank structure and do not even form part of the English & Welsh Police Service.

Well done Pete! Another couple of items preserved for posterity. Knowing you as I do, I know that if and when these medals leave your possession they will do so in company with the story of George's outstanding piece of work. Its a pity that his CC's Commend Certificate has become separated (presumably) from the medals. Dave.

Peter, A fantastic group of medals to a brave and determined Palestine Police Officer.

The Victorian & Edwardian collar badge for Bedford Borough Police was as shown in my photo. This was later replaced by a simple King's Crown which was worn through to amalgamation. It is also worth bearing in mind that Bedford Borough, in Victorian period wore the normal Met. style striped armlet, whereas the photo of the bobby shows him wearing an armlet with horizontal stripes. Is the guy Lorton the man shown in the photo? I don't think so. The mystery continues...............

Nick, No, the collar badge worn by Bedford Borough (see attached photo) was of a very distinctive design and is clearly not the badge being worn by the bobby in the photo.

What I can tell you is that the individual is not wearing Bedfordshire uniform. Bedfordshire Constabulary never wore collar badges and the guy in the photo certainly is. Are you sure that he is a Bucks. officer? The name of the photographer is a good clue but they often travelled and the town where the photographer is based can sometimes be something of a "red herring".

Nick, If he had a Crown and a bath star on his shoulder then he would (in those days) be a Superintendent Grade 1. A Chief Superintendent would have a Crown above two bath stars and a Superintendent Grade 2 would have a single Crown. The Deputy Chief Constable of Oxford would have been a Superintendent Grade 1. So, if what you say is correct then they have by accident or design got it right, certainly insofar as his rank insignia is concerned. However, if he is being referred to as a Chief Superintendent then alas, they still have it wrong! Oxford had (at the time of the amalgamation) two Supts. One was the DCC (Supt. Grade 1) and the other was the Supt. of the Cowley Div. who was a Supt. Grade 2. The rank markings for Superintending ranks changed (I think) in the early 1970's to that which we know today in consequence of the two separate grades for Superintendent being abolished. When I say this I am referring to provincial forces in England & Wales. I do know that in Scotland they had (at one time) one or two unusual ranks which were not used south of the border That also applies of course to MPD ,City of London and Northern Ireland who also retained a degree of individuality in respect of their rank system.

I must confess that I have long since stopped watching police related dramas, as I simply get "wound up" by the inaccuracies such as those mentioned here. Hence I've not seen any of the "Endeavour" episodes. However, if they are suggesting as part of the script that there was an officer of Chief Superintendent rank in the Oxford City Police then that is something else they have wrong! I've just looked at a copy of the Police & Constabulary Almanac for 1968 (the force amalgamated on the 1st April) and the Oxford City Police is shown as having a Deputy Chief Constable (below CC) with the rank of Superintendent. To be accurate he was Superintendent Leonard North. Perhaps the lack of salutes has something to do with the fact that he did not exist?

Err.......No. Not even in the Metropolitan Police!

Oh Robin! You will certainly upset Dave Conner now...............

Nick, There are political reasons why I believe it will be a long time before we see a national police force in England, if ever. You have to have the political will and it is not there at the moment. Also, you will find very few ACPO ranks advocating such a move. The reason? It would be proffesional suicide to do so. Most would loose their jobs if a national force was formed as has been the case in Scotland. Its okay for Stephen House to advocate such a move, He's got the top job! Finally, don't forget one long standing anachronism in English policing. The City of London Police. Numerous attempts have been made to consolidate it with the Met. over the years and all have failed. The reason is because powerful politicians with City connections have indicated that they would stop such a move. In fact I would go as far as to say that I think that hell would freeze over before the City Police met their demise.

Dave, It's all a matter of opinion! I visited Inverness several years ago and saw both the epaulette badge and the small cloth badge being worn. I knew what the design consisted of but had that not been the case I would have been none the wiser. I have examples of both and again (in my opinion) the design is so convoluted it tends to convey nothing really other than confusion. I'm referring to force issued items and not tie pins etc. The wallet badge was indeed a credit to the force. That said, why produce a very nice badge at great expense and then hide it in a wallet so that no one can see it? Perhaps that's why it was short lived. Fife similarly produced a series of warrant badges, The last issued one was quite striking - but again hidden away where no one could see it. "Fob" badges saw a short period of favour in Scotland but again they for the most part faded away after a short time. It is as if one part of the organisation wanted to shout its identity whilst another was hissing "shush, they may find out who we are...." The cash expended on all these short lived excursions would have been better spent on producing a decent cap badge for each individual force instead of the very poor looking (in my opinion) national badge. Oh, and before I finish I must mention Tayside Police. One Chief Constable the had the audacity to order the introduction of an enamelled version of the Scottish national badge with a scroll below indicating "Tayside Police". A well made badge which fulfilled both force and national identity. It was short lived and was replaced by the "el cheapo" national version when he retired. I await with interest to see what next is produced from a badge point of view in Scotland. They already have a national badge so in theory (if they want to save cash) they need not do anything. That said I've heard a rumour that someone has already splashed out on a design which has been rejected by the Scottish Herald. I watch with interest........

The badge of the Northern Constabulary was an interesting one, but (alas) far too complicated and intricate to "translate" into a chrome plated metal badge and which when produced as such and affixed to an item of uniform looked like a chrome "blob" with no detail whatsoever available to anyone remotely interested in examining it. A great pity.