W McSwiggan

Combined Saxon Duchies Question ? Oh let?s throw in Weimar too OK ? OK ? generalizations are bad and especially scary in this area of interest involving Aristocratic foibles and all. That said ? I?m trying to gain an appreciation for the Saxon duchies including Saxe-Weimar. What, in the opinion of this august group is the ?Basic? award for each of these sovereigns? Officers ? the house order? Enlisted ? the attached merit medals? Weimar choices are (I hope) ? White Falcon Order for officers & General Honor Decoration for the ranks ? seems pretty straight forward. Here?s where I?m really unsure ? for all the duchies ? officers and the Saxe-Eenestine House Order and the "grade appropriate" Merit Cross or Medal across the board or did it vary by duchy? Altenburg ? Saxe-Ernestine House Order for officers & perhaps the Bravery Medal for the troops? Coburg & Gotha - I?m guessing the SEHO and affiliated medals Meiningen ? really confused here ? are the cross and medal for merit in war the basic decorations? Any opinions or better yet definitive statements on basic awards would be appreciated!

The Griffin Order has always been one of my favorites. Beautiful design ? elegant in its lack of fussiness in my opinion. Not sure of the statistics but considering the size of the Mecklenburg Duchies I imagine it is rather rare. Anyone have distribution stats for the various grades?

Drum roll please - your prize is... another question! We know about the aviators thanks to Neal O'Connor. Max Muller & Thom held significant distinctions as winners ot the Pour le Merite & other neat stuff on the part of Max. Any of the 5 grunts get other high recognition beyond the member's cross and GMVK as noted?

Well - the stars have come through again - ya gotta be impressed! Thanks all - great information.

O?Connor asserts in Volume II that four enlisted members of the German Armed Forces were awarded both the Member?s Cross of the Royal Hohenzollern House Order and the (Golden) Military Merit Cross from Prussia. Two ? the aviators in this exclusive club were identified ? Thom & Ophaus. Thom went on to earn the Pour le M?rite and his story is well known. Ophaus ? a Schlacht pilot is less known but his story is recorded in volume II. Here it comes! Who were the other two? They were members of the ground forces and are unknown to me. Can anyone here identify these soldiers and/or outline their careers and awards?

Need a new favorite whine now. Wouldn?t you know ? after ordering (in forlorn hope) one last try ? Cron in English ? you guys convinced me to seek the German language edition. Naturally ? the last try worked and I am the proud owner of the English edition. I?m delighted ? I think. Whoever said this was dry is a master of understatement! Can?t wait to tell Mom that I?ve finally bought a book completely devoid of pictures. Not even a diagram! I?m becoming an intellectual methinks! This will take a while to digest before I can make any definitive statements but the translation seems pretty well done so far. Thanks again for all your advice and encouragement on this one ? clearly a valuable reference!

As to the color - note the color of the Black Eagle Order Ribbon.

Great lead & thanks - will be my next stop if present attempt fails.

Glenn, I appreciate the insight. I was looking for a comparison between Cron & Nash to see if they are nominally equivalent. Your response and that of Christophe & Chris B all make it evident that they are not at all equal. I shall continue to try to get Cron confident that it is a quality reference. Thanks, Wayne

Hi Christophe, Thank you for your offer but French is not one of my languages. I do have some proficiency in German and that would be my best bet per all of the advice given. I have made one last attempt and it is too late to cancel the order. If I am unlucky again - I will give a shot at the German language edition. Thanks again, Wayne

I think they named a disease after this problem - actually - that's not funny - I know an individual afflicted with it and it is miserable. That said - trying to get this book has caused Rick to listen to huge amounts of whining!

Thanks for a great & fast reply Chris! I'm taking a chance on the outside hope that this seller will have it! Normally Abebooks is great but this one has been rough. I agree with your language assessment but will use the German language fall back in the event of another "miss". Besides - if a real translator goofs it up - I don't have a chance! If you would please indulge me one more time - am I safe in assuming that having Cron would render buying Nash's Imperial German Army Handbook 1914-1918 unnecessary? Thanks again, Wayne

Hi all ? questions, questions, questions ? that?s what I do! First ? if you need frustration in your life ? try to get this book! I?ve made 6 attempts thru Abebooks and every listing was a bust! Several took their sweet time before returning ?Don?t Have? message. One confirmed availability then changed their minds and one is still showing available after returning a direct message to me that they didn?t. There is only one left claiming to have the volume but at a whopping 30% higher than the others previously listed. The listings make it unclear if this is a new edition of the English language tome or simply imprecise listing and a big mark-up. IMPERIAL GERMAN ARMY, 1914-1918 (ISBN: 1874622701) HERRMAN CRON, DUNCAN ROGERS Price: US$ 62.14 [Convert Currency] Shipping within United Kingdom: US$ 4.14 IMPERIAL GERMAN ARMY 1914-18: ORGANISATION, STRUCTURE, ORDERS-OF-BATTLE Cron, H. Price: US$ 80.01 Questions are ? is this worth doing considering the price AND are these both the same? Thanks in advance for any insight.

Jeez! Just had an epiphany! There seems to be a relationship between crankiness and poor eyesight?

Unfortunately - to get it right one either needs the memory and intellect of a genius or 1 - much time, 2 - the award rolls and 3 - all of the pertinent regulations! Almost as impossible for us mere mortals as trying to collect this stuff! Hoo boy ? think I?ve got a major headache now! As I?ve amply demonstrated, I?m very fortunate that I am not a collector. My interest is primarily in the people who wore these things. I consider orders and decorations to be an indicator of a soldier?s significance ? fallible to be sure, but an indicator none-the-less. Big generals got big medals ? little generals did not. Fairness was not universally applied especially for junior officers and other ranks but that does not mean that a ?rack? should be summarily dismissed as being owned by a toady. I am not naive ? over the coarse of a lengthy military career ? I?ve witnessed huge abuses of the system of military awards and that was without the foibles of aristocracy. That said ? you have to love the almost infinite variability of Imperial German awards! Thanks again ? one and all. As a post script ? note how accurate Rick?s reply was!!!

That would explain the asterisk!

OK! Andreas ? now I get it! If I don?t understand it ? that means that I actually do understand it! All very clear now! Gotta love this hobby... Thanks Andreas & Rick ? I appreciate your time and explanations. wem

Righto! And thank you for your quick reply. But? Nimmergut?s Orden & Ehrenzeichen (item 1675-1685) show swords, swords on ring & oak leaves. I picture this as very similar to the WWII RK with oak leaves and swords. Still confused here? Maybe just for foreigners??? PS - great pix!

Just when I thought I understood this? Brian posted a link to his site displaying Genlt. G?nther von Etzel?s awards. First, let me thank him for sharing these treasures with us. I see a progression and I assume that the progression applies directly to the general. The progression is: RAO4X, RAO3 with bow & swords on ring (statute ribbon) and finally ? RAO2X with oak leaves on war ribbon with additional center stripe. I was under the impression that earlier lower grade awards of this order ?with swords? entitled the winner to display swords-on-ring on higher grades of the order (forever) such as was the case with the RAO3 shown on Brian?s site. Where have I gone wrong? I would have thought that the 2nd Class would have been RAO2X with oak leaves AND swords-on-ring. This is based on conversations with some of our own esteemed experts and my understandings or misinterpretation of my readings (specifically Hamelman & O?Connor). Please ? please ? do not interpret this question as suggesting that Brian?s site or heirlooms are somehow incorrect. I am simply ? once again as always it seems ? confused!

As well he should be - by my count - he is one of only two company grade army officers serving in non-Prussian ground units to be so honored. The other was, of course - Rommel.

Nope - gotta do Deutsch!

Honestly can't recall if we've done this before here but here is a short listing of items in my posession and my opinions of them. I do not consider myself in the class of those you've asked but I have been guided to some of these references by Rick Research. Enjoy! wem  Deutschland-Katalog 2001/2002 Orden & Ehrenzeichen 1800-1945 by Jorg Nimmergut Basic listing or awards and decorations by sovereign state. B&W illustrations ? good for quick reference on various orders and decorations and various permutations. No explanations, statutes or numbers. * Banderkatalog Orden & Ehrenzeichen Deutschland 1800-1945 by Jorg Nimmergut Companion volume to first entry showing color charts for medals, orders & decorations * The Iron Cross ? A History 1813 ? 1957 by Gordon Williamson Good place to start for concise history of this decoration * Of Red Eagles and Royal Crowns by William Hamelman English translation of historical statutes for the Prussian Red Eagle Order and Crown Order with black & white illustrations. Provides insight into the various grades and combinations of accoutrements for these complex orders. * The History of the Prussian Pour le Merite Order in 3 volumes by William Hamelman Listing of recipients by time period with short citations in most cases. Includes pertinent historical outlines and award descriptions * Military Medals, Decorations & Orders of the United States & Europe by Ball & Peters Not recommended ? organization unclear ? WWI sovereigns all listed under Germany without subtitles ? must know enough to figure it out yourself. Illustrations in color of varying quality ? many look like refugees from the ?cigarette books? ? and many inaccuracies. If you really like pictures ? buy it but don?t blame me!!! * Orders and Decorations of all Nations by Robert Werlick Due to subject range ? our hobby is sparsely covered but he does give black and white photos of the orders of all the sovereign states of the German Empire with information on foundation dates, ribbon colors and grades within the orders. * Prussia Award Documents and Authorization Certificates 1793-1972 by Dietmar Raksch Good one for the ?advanced? collector/historian * Pour le Merite und Tapferkeitsmedaille by Klietmann German language concise listing of orders and decorations by state from WWI through Weimar Republic tthrough WWII. Indicates grades and statistics in many cases. Handy and one of my personal favotires for quick reference. Black & white photos of badges and pendants ? no ribbon information * Aviation Awards of Imperial Germany in World War One by Neal O?Connor in 7 volumes Best purchase I?ve made for information on Imperial Orders and Decorations. English language. Briefly explains political & military history of each state before providing explanations of the orders and decorations of each state. If you are interested in the people under the medals ? you?ll love this as the author continues to put faces on the names of the aviator recipients. Even if not enamored with aviation ? the other facets of these books make them hugely attractive to the collecting community in my opinion. * Die tragbaren Ehrenzeichen des Deutschen Reiches by von Hessenthal und Schreiber This is a fundamental cornerstone of an Imperial Library in my opinion. The information contained is overwhelming. Not particularly impressive for illustrations ? all black & white. Simple lists of orders with no additional information other than foundation dates. As an ?all in one? ? unsurpassed. Currently available in reprinted form as a paperback. * Orden ? the Cigarette Card Album sponsored by the Munich Astoria. In German and not at all scholarly but great fun in my opinion and semi-antique to boot! Cards are somewhat primitive but useful for major award identification & colors purposes. Organized by ?type? award and state. I have no regrets about this recent purchase at under $100 US. Two great sites on web: Dave Danner?s site ?Decorations of the States of the German Empire? http://home.att.net/~david.danner/militaria/states.htm And Andreas M. Schulze Ising?s site ?Imperial German Orders, Medals & Decorations? http://www.medalnet.net/

2? from a non-collector. My interest is history and the men behind it. As I?ve delved into the complexities of Imperial German orders and decorations as a tool for gaining more insight in this era, I am struck by the nature of the ?greats? in this arena. In my opinion, they are not properly characterized as motivated to ?possess? or the value of the items in their care. They are very interested in identifying and ?returning to life? the wearers of these things. They have invested far more than money ? they have spent years learning about the objects of their interest. Not just values and dimensions but history. Mostly though, I must say that it is their generosity in sharing their knowledge that sets them apart. Their willingness to share hard gained information with newcomers such as myself speaks volumes to their love of this topic. Thank you for this gift ? especially my friend Rick Research.

Les - tangential or not - great post with very interesting information. For the purpose of clarification - my point - not artfully made - was that considering the percentages of the Army officer population in the grade of captain or lower and the amount of combat going on - it would appear that the PlmO was not proportionately awarded to the line-doggies especially in comparison to aviators and submariners. If you push it to the next level - the awards to aviators would suggest a truly Imperial award distributed with little regard to home of record. When looking directly at ground component company grade officers - one finds a very different picture - only two awards - one to Rommel and one to Schorner. Clearly great distinctions. Relative to the aviators - the PlmO was very sparcely awarded to ground component junior officers and effectively not at all to other than Prussian contingents. This effectively promotes the HHOX for ground component officers to a very significant award indeed. The best a non-Prussian could hope for and by the numbers a huge distinction even for Prussians.

Paul, Actually Manfred von Richthofen held all three as well. Per O'Connor - several aviators held two of the three. wem