FireMedals

Ralph, Great collection. One thing I like about some of the basic Masonic medals are their simplicity of design. And the Iron Cross is a real hoot. I'd like to know who dreamed up the idea of making a copy of that. Is the IC medal the one that was offered on-line some time back? I recall seeing one but never followed it. I'll have to find one just for the unique nature. Have you been able to place it as to the location of that particular Commandery or the date of issue? Thanks for posting them. FireMedals

Ron, A nice variation made by the Joseph Mayer & Brothers Co., of Seattle. It should be stamped as such on the reverse. Mayer was a jeweler and medal maker, producing some campaign medals for the US Government. They have an interesting history, too long to go into here, but they eventually had money problems (and probably management problems) and production wound down during the 1960's-70's. I don't know when this medal was produced as few production records of Mayer's work survived. The variation in the design with the unusual sunburst center is unique as far as I know. I've been collecting these for years and never seen any other like it. I appreciate seeing your example, as I've been curious if these were made with the back ribbon drape, or if that was done later by a particular group of the KT's. My example has a gold colored open-catch pin back. Is that the same as yours? While the KT medal generally has the familiar design as shown elsewhere in this thread, there were, and still are, many variations. I believe, but have no written proof, that the basic design for the medal is given somewhere, but local Commanderies were allowed to have them manufactured without going through the headquarters. Apparently anything close to the general design was acceptable. Thus you find all of the real early identified examples being the product of the Henderson Ames Co. in Michigan, and later makers ranging from Mass. to NY, Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Seattle. Are there any other members with variations of this medal???? FireMedals P.S. Joseph Mayer is not to be confused with N.S. Meyer of New York, another medal maker....but not known to have made any KT medals.

Kev None of this should be a surprise to anyone who follows the US awards procedures (or lack of same). I saw the same thing 35 years ago in Vietnam with the REMF's getting awards for outstanding filekeeping. Then they went and made awards like the Army Commendation and Bronze Star almost automatic if you completed your tour. Officers, of course, had their assigned gongs so they could be sure to get their points for promotion. A few months in the field avoiding contact with the VC, then a transfer to a staff job, a suitable gong, then back home with a promotion. Look at the operation in Panama where more decorations were awarded that there were combatants! FireMedals

Kevin, What you have are two US Navy re-enlistment bars. This style was produced and used from about 1919 until the Navy shut down production and issuance of the Good Conduct Medal in 1942 for the duration of WWII. The date of the front represents the year of his discharge under his (then) current enlistment. The previous style bars (pre-1919) would have had the name of the man's ship or duty station on the front, with his date of discharge and CSC number on the reverse. CSC was Continuous Service Certificate, an early written enlistment record book kept by the sailor that recorded all his ship assignments, etc.. The number was similar to a service number today, but not someting assigned to every sailor. You had to apply for continuous service if you wanted to be a career sailor. That style of engraving ended in 1919. These two bars would have gone on the GC Medal of Edward Grant, and if these were the only two he had, his medal would have been issued about 1931 (assuming his first enlistment was a regular 4-year enlistment). Of course, without knowing when his initial enlistment was, it could have been many years earlier. The problem with stray re-enlistment bars, US Navy and Marine Corps, it is almost impossible to get the records of the recipient. You generally need to supply the Navy with some dates of service, place of enlistment, etc, to let them sort out your man from those with similar names. You can always try to run the name through via a Navy records request under the full name, and perhaps the assumption he was from the Mass. area. Good luck. FireMedals And by the way...you went medal hunting on your HONEYMOON??????? You're a braver man than me!!!

He's a photo of the second type of the badge, 1926-34, full size. FireMedals

Joseph, A nice mini. I've never seen a mini of this type of fire award. The decoration only came in a badge form. There are two styles, the first (your type) was issued between 1908 and 1918. It can be found in two metals, the usual gild-bronze, and a rarer war metal. The second style was issued between 1926 and 1934, when it was replaced by a TR award. The second version has the center image of the Kaiser replaced with a Prussian eagle, and the crown replaced with a fireman's helmet. Both awards were generally for 25 years long service or outstanding contribution to the Prussian fire services. The full size award of the style on your bar is the most common. Usually easy to find on line. The second version is a bit scarcer, but available with patience. If you ever want to part with that little puppy, let me know. Firemedals

Mark M, Curiousier and curiouser.... I think the old vet ID will depend upon someone ID'ing the medal he has. We'll may at least know his organization and maybe time period. The young guy just keeps getting better. I'd agree Corporal with the new pix. I couldn't see the second stripe. But the new pix of the ribbon pretty much eliminates an early wound ribbon. Too bad...I'd love to find a photo of that elusive puppy. Now the ribbon looks like a Distinguished Service Medal. A new gong in WWI, and probably got handed out to an enlisted man or two. We should have some well informed members who can answer that question. Also, the new pix of his chevrons...do I see a faint image of a propeller below the chevrons??? Might be a trick of the enlargment process. What do you see looking at the original? If they are there...an Avation Corporal with a DSM...probably not too many of them around. I've exhausted my three guesses. I'll sit back and let younger eyes weigh in. FireMedals

Mark M, An interesting photo, a bit scarcer that a GAR one. What you have is an older veteran who looks to be a member of an organization known as the Army and Navy Union. This group was formed in 1886 and was open to any US veteran, regardless of branck of service or war service. The 5-armed cross he is wearing is the A&NU membership medal. The organization is still around, and I think still open to any vet. I can't tell what the second medal is, possibily a convention badge. Doesn't look like any regular campaign award or a navy good conduct medal. By the way, I doubt this vet was a member of the GAR, or he would almost certainly have had a GAR membership medal, the familiar star shaped medal, similar to the MOH. If the wreath on his hat is clear,and you can tell us what is says, it might help the ID. So if he's not GAR, and nothing else indicates any membership in the Spanish War service organizations, that could mean he served in any branch of the military during the pre-war years. If someone can identify the second medal, we might be able to narrow that down. The younger vet is in a WWI period Army uniform. On his right sleve, as seen by the viewer, are two overseas service chevrons, I think one for each six month overseas service. On his left sleeve is a single wound chevron. The Purple Heart wasn't authorized until 1932, so no ribbon for that. However, the single ribbon bar he is wearing might be a very early wound ribbon (white with two red stripes) that was unofficial, or very briefly officially approved, depending upon who you want to believe. If the photo is clear, you might be able to verify this, and that it is not the standard Victory Medal ribbon. B&W photos never do justice to ribbon colors, so you may see more variation in the stripes or colors yourself, indicating the Victory. If not, it may be a Wound Ribbon. And I think his rank is a PFC. I only see one stripe. Either way, a nice find. FireMedals

Christian L. The badge is a five year long-service badge of the Union of Voluntary Firemen. It was instituted about 1920 and issued in this style for various years of service until they were re-designed in 1937. The number of years was initially indicated by Arabic numerals and later by Roman numerals. Before 1940 all firemen's decorations were made by the firm of VMT Roman Tavast, and their name should be on the back plate, if it is original to the badge. Some older badges were also made by the company of Rekkor and Kattenberg, goldsmiths in Tallinn. There were also another set of medals issued as national awards for the fire service consisting of silver and gold medals and crosses. A very elaborate system for such a small country, but it created one of the most attractive set of fire awards you'll find from a single country. The lower grades are fairly common now, and good quality higher grades still usually command a premium. A nice award - Thanks for showing it. FireMedals

Igor, The two formation patches are for the British 8th Army. Firemedals

Coastie, "Unusual" and "nicely done" are understatements. Unique is the word. I've been collecting these for about 20 years and have about three dozen varieties, but I've never seen the ribbon suspension on yours before. That's one of the attractions of these pieces to me. They are still relatively inexpensive, and finding the varieties is the challenge. While most of the Commanderies used the "stock" medals as illustrated above, a few apparently worked with local jewelers to make their own variations. I've tried without success to get information from the KT's about the history of the medal, the makers, etc.. It seems anything of a closely similar design was accepted. Thanks for posting this. Another one I need to find Firemedals

My Lodge had several policemen, and one raised his son. Let's say it wasn't just a ceremonial or a fatherly touch the Master applied. Firemedals

Mike, Thanks for sharing those. A fabulous Jewel. I've seen a lot of Masonic watches, but that one is new to me. Firemedals

WM, This sounds like a great theme for an exhibit. I only wish I could get back to London by May. Do they allow photographs??? Firemedals

Chris, Can't help with the unit history or the patch, but might provide some insight on Stanton. His whole personal history is a pack of lies; he served in Thailand, never in VN or Laos; his "wound" was from falling from a jeep; and the research for his books came from tons of material he stole over the years and had stored in his garage. The truth of Stanton is best told in a book called STOLEN VALOR by B.G. Burkett and Glenna Whitley ISBN 1-56530-284-2. So, considering his record, I wouldn't place a lot of weight on his evaluation of anything, except perhaps the bar girls of Thailand. I would guess his opinion on the Americal was due to its involvement with the MyLai massacre, but by the late 60's the whole military was falling apart, not just them. Stanton's pile of stolen documents did provide him the information for another of his books "Vietnam Order of Battle". It lists varying degrees of history for most of the units in Vietnam, and might be of help in your initial research. Firemedals

Paul R. The medals themselves are fairly scarce, so I would guess real period ribbon bars would be also. I know I've never seen a similar bar in 35 years of fire medal collecting. But I know nothing about the ribbon values. Maybe some of the Imperial's on the forum can advise. Firemedals

Paul R. The HK; The Provincial Fire Brigade Honor Cross of Hessen-Nassau - 1934-1936; One of several Thuringen Fire Brigade Association awards issued between 1920 and 1936. Firemedals

Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA - 1913 Scottish Rite medals American Freemasonry has issued thousands of medals and pins over the years, and the Scottish Rite is one of the most prolific. This is an interesting pair of medals for the 1913 graduating class of the Milwaukee, Wisconsin, Consistory of the Scottish Rite. The one on the left was awarded to L.L. Davis when he received his 32nd degree as a member of the Spring Class. The medal on the right was also given to Brother Davis for the Fiftieth Anniversary of the Milwaukee Consistory in 1913. Firemedals

Here is WM's jewel as it was meant to be seen. Firemedals

WM, An unbelievable jewel. When you get upgraded to a regular member please post this again in color. Thanks, Firemedals

Mike, WM, and all others; First, as a collector of many things, military, Masonic, and otherwise, and as one who scans several other forums, I think it is great that we have had several members participate in this topic, with quite a few threads since it was originally started some time back. There is an obvious interest among the membership, and that alone should qualify us for some space. Second, I would hope the management of the forum doesn't consider our topic to be out of line simply because it isn't "military". There are certainly military connections with Freemasonry in the form of Travelling Lodges that met, and probably still meet, all around the world where Masons are together and can find the time to hold a Lodge. And there are groups like the National Sojourners here in the U.S. who are composed of officers and warrant officers in the U.S. military. (I hope to present some images when I can get to my small collection and get them scanned). Plus, and most of you may have noticed, there are many Masonic and fraternal medals, jewels, etc., that appear military to the casual collector. I believe this thread is helping to identify these, and make everyone's enjoyment of the hobby a little easier. Some Jewels have already appeared here in other threads for just that purpose. And as I tried to do with my little entry on the membership medal of the Knights Templar (U.S.), it has been misidentified to the point of being used to mislead collectors as being a military piece... so I think we are all very much on topic and in line with the goals of our organizatoin. Now (off my soapbox) in relation to the remarks about the Rose Croix and religious affiliations; I know of the lack of a requirement for any particular religious belief for the Blue Lodges, and Scottish Rite. Peter's comments have explained a lot about the matter in the English system (Thank you). I can't comment about too many of the other US Masonic bodies, except for what I've read, but I believe, the higher degrees [or highest degree ?] of the York Rite in the U.S. are only open to Christians. Anyone who can clarify that for me? So let's keep the information flowing. I know I've been picking up the odd Masonic and fraternal pieces for years, and have never seen even a good comprehensive booklet on even a small aspect of this field of collecting. We are starting to do just that right here. Firemedals

Excellent images WM, Thank you. Firemedals

Hi WM, Share on!!! That's one of the nice things about this forum, looking at things I'll never own. A nice jewel. Any chance of finding a replacement ribbon, or was it on a collar chain? Happy New Year, Firemedals

Georgecl, The WM is correct (aren't they always??) In looking back on my post, what I should have said was, I don't think this is made for a U.S. Masonic Lodge (Blue Lodge), for the reasons the WM pointed out. Although, older Masonic jewelry was often made outside the "standard" designs. I didn't comment on the reverse as I can't get a good feel for it. Might represent the two pillars, but it looks more like Transylvania than Israel. Artistic license ?? This little piece really puts the use of Masonic symbolism to the test!! Firemedals

Georgecl, A nice fob, but I would guess it isn't Masonic in the sense of Free Masons. In the US, the Masonic square and compasses include the letter "G". Other fraternal organizations often hijacked the symbol, substituting their own device in the center. For example, the Order of United American Mechanics (OUAM), and the Junior Order United American Mechanics (JOUAM) used a central device of a raised arm, which to the casual observer looked like a "G". I am not familiar with the trowel design on yours, but it was probably a similar organization. Perhaps another member has seen it before. Firemedals I thought Kgard might be that member. Guess not.