Yankee

Hi Beau Nice Albert, think however yours is a early 2nd type. Your reverse has the 2nd type shield & crown. The 1st type should have the crown being totally seperate fron the shield. The early shields are extremely well detailed. Yankee

My Pleasure. I too try to find as much info as possible on the Al Valore but it is difficult and I assume any decent book on the subject has not been translated. Any Italian experts/authors out there please suggest something??? Sincerely Brian

Hi ilclifton Thanks for pointing that out to me. IN the States they are not common. I suppose almost all are living in Italy. Interesting to note they were more issued then the Bavarian Bravery Medal & Saxon St.Henry combined ( estimate 11,000 ) & those do turn up. Just glade the Al Valore's have names....

Hi Mike There is an excellent article in Medal News " Defending the Tirol" Dec 2005/Jan 2006. Some very fine groups pictured. You can order past issues for a few dollars. www.tokenpublishing.com . In the States difficult to come across books on the Italian Austrian conflict. Your right they are a fascinating read. Sincerely Brian

It has to be The Spainish Order of Charles lll, so you are right it would be the "Fleur De Lys" Strange the officer had not want to fix the badge Sincerely Yankee

Hi CCI For what action was your medal given? I recall Liverpool has one too from 1918, maybe both to the same battle. They are rare, any idea the number awarded in WWl? Sincerely Yankee

Hi CCI As I understand there is no book as of yet that has a list of the holders and actions. As I recall from an excellent prior thread you can only get the info from the government and need to be a relative sad for us collectors

Hi Rick Noticed that too, might be lions however. I don't think it is any of the Italian States, due to the use of a wreath above the cross instead of the usual crown. I'm thinking the third from right just might be the Order of the Redeemer from the Duchy of Mantua. If that is so truely an amazing bar.

I noticed too that the WWI issues have a crude inscription as if a little kid was doing his homework on. The examples from the mid 19th century are very fine as if they came from the mint itself. Any idea who inscribed the WWl issues and why not more skill taken into such a top bravery medal? Or was it up to the owners to inscribe their medals and have it done on the cheap... Sincerely Yankee

Anyone know what lives between the St.Anne & Leopold?

Hi Roman Cool one What a most interesting material used for the reverse. Is that jade or some stone? I too have one dedicated for that year ( in peace time ) but with inscription in center as usually found. Sincerely Yankee

Hi Alex As I understand Baon is translated from Austro-Hungarian Army to mean Battalion. Nice to see an orginal Sincerely Yankee

Hi Enzo May I extend my condolences. Your father is a most remarkable man, certainly Rommel thought that too, to personally honor him with an award by his own hands. It must have been a very moving experience for your father to come into contact with one of the great military geniuses of the war. Never forgetting the past, remembering his men as well as the enemy on all the anniversaries. Many kind thanks for translating your dad's "motivazione" which I'm sure was not so easy. I was amazed to have read of your father's courage and not retreating under such heavy enemy pressure even when his wouds needed immediate medical attention. The Al-Valore must be equivalent to the Victoria Cross. Reason English medals are so popular is just amazing how much detailed research can be easily found. I suppose if that was the same case in your country there would be 1000% more collectors. All the best. Sincerely Brian

Hi Enzo Actually I'm glade you went of our topic. It was very nice that you had shared some of your family history on the forum. You must be very proud to have such a brave dad. I was fascinated to read what you have wrote on your dad's action in WWll. Hope one day you can go into the details of his award. It is that he had to wait such a long time for his award. Perhaps the same wait took place in the 19th century too. I know Italy has a huge bureaucracy, I suppose slowed the award process to a crawl. Great that he did receive his medal & was not forgotten. Even in our country awards can take place 30, 40 & even 50 years after an action. I understand that the vast majority of gold medals was melted down by orders of Mussolini to pay for the war. How very sad these treasures of histroy were destroyed. Amazing what you had said about the French recipients having there names engraved after award. I guess in France the answer to my guy lies. The recipient was a Canonnier 9eD'ART. His name CHAMOUILLE which I assume is French. I assume the engraving style is the same for French & Italian. Only way you can tell them apart is the name since unit might be hard if you do not have the proper books. Pity the Italian Ministry of Defense is so secretive. How happy they'd make us collectors if they open their archives to the general public but that is furthest from their mind. So it really is hard to collect the Al-Valore if you want to get info behind the medal. Sincerely Brian

Found Bogdan's auction coming up in Jan, nice Iron Crown selection. No disputing lot 11, having the Rothe signature on the back. Have not seen enough to make a proper judgement on date of issue. Just maybe an interesting variation having a smooth prop to rest the eagle's bottom feathers that connect to the lower crown. Only a makers mark that would suggest an old piece yet on the new design ( post1866 ) Perhaps a transition piece. Have seen 3rd class examples in gold with no markings at all in the new design. Just don't know what to make of it.

Hi Enzo The catalog has another page that shows the gold marks of Phoebus whose facing left and for smaller objects in gold such as Orders a chamois facing right & a fox facing left. I can't imagine any Iron Crown would have been double stamped by Rothe. They would have no need to stamp it twice unless for a very special reason such as a collar. I'm hoping somebody is sitting on a non Rothe made piece with the FR mark in question to solve & put this issue to rest.

Hi Gordon Email the auction firm, certainly they can provide a more desriptive observation of the marking in question in case of typing era. Any set that is not in its orginal case is suspect in respect of both pieces not being the orginal awards. Possible a collector could have thrown the two pieces together to complete a set regardless of maker. All to often one encounters sets of two different makers for all sorts of reasons. Even one firm would contract another firm to complete orders if there own stock was low. More important show the experts the Iron Crown for Rothe has made a bunch of post war copies, why I like the other makers. Good luck

Gentlemen Are there examples of "FR" without the lozenge or rectangular punch? I have seen "Rothe" spelled out ( star ). There are Iron Crown gold examples with other makers mark and the tax release mark on the same badge. You can't possibly have two makers on the same badge. If I am wrong then what does the tax release mark look like? Did the other makers use a lozenge or rectangular punch as well? It would be fascinating to know of anybody has in his collection an "FR" by itself then certainly would support the firm marking the piece. I know all to well that a good amount of German pieces in gold have no markings at all and only with the orginal case one can be 100% certain of the manufacturer. Perhaps Rothe didn't need to mark their badges for they had their logo inside the case. Always eager to learn. If I'm mistaken my apologies to all members. Sincerely Yankee

Hi gordon Rick is absolutely correct in regards to the FR being tax release marks. Unfortunately too many people have it mixed up with the firm Rothe. Never could figure that one out... FR with a dot in between is the earliest 1866-72 FR without a dot also in a rectangular punch, middle period FR in a lozenge, late period This info comes from Mr McNamara who was top expert on Austrian

Interesting enough the Serbs issued several medals for the war with the Turks. As I understand from this thread the 1877 bravery medal is extremely rare compared to the later one that has a laural wreath & shield of arms. Is this because the 1877-78 bravery medal replaced the 1877 and not a chance to award so many soldiers with the former or is it because the 1877 Prince Milan is a higher ranking bravery medal then the 1877-78 medal. Thanks in advance. Yankee

That explains why I'd see different initials & style. Always thought each Monarch had his or her own monogram on reverse Glade you cleared that up It can be really hard to date the gold ones ( 1810-1900 )since there is little variation over the years. Thanks Yankee

Hi Antonio Thanks Have noticed different monograms on this order. Any idea when this one was issued? Thanks Yankee

Hello Anyone know which Spainish Monarch had these initials? The obverse has a fine hand painted center, perhaps an indication of a certain period. Any info most appreciated.

Hi Iver Thanks for the info, narrowing it down to 12 officers. I understand that the officers from these 4 elite regiments were Austrians and the enlisted men were muslims. Post 33 is a dated 1909 decoration to an officer of the Eisenbahn & Telegraphe Regiment. Does the schematismus give any names? Most welcome to have all types of long service decorations on this thread since there are so many models to learn from.