laurentius

4 hours ago, eurorders said:

Paintings and furniture and fine art I can see they would immediately value, but it seems phaleristics and fine medal collecting did not emerge into its own as a recognized collectible til perhaps later in time??

There are two kinds of collectors in this world. You have the phaleristic collectors (people like us) who collect to widen the knowledge of the field, who love the interaction with fellow collectors and who chase that high we feel when we buy something rare. This kind of collecting (in the area of medals and decorations) is atleast two centuries old. One of the most famous collectors was Prince George, Duke of Cambridge (the cousin of Queen Victoria). He died in 1904 and he managed to form a huge collection (which has been sold off during the last ten years), this would not have been possible without a network to buy those decorations (although his status as a German prince and a British duke surely helped).

Than we have the other type of collector, the trofee-hunter. Usually soldiers who seek mementos of their time in war. They don't have a particular decoration in mind but rather take what they can get. Orders, decorations, medals, shoulderboards, even the little pips on the uniforms aren't safe. This kind of collecting is much older than our 'civilised' way of collecting. It is this type of collecting that usually leads people to become phaleristic collectors. The majority of the collectors started because their grandpa/father/uncle/neighbour brought something back from the war. This leads to an interest which can lead to a big collection, if the passion is properly formed.

4 hours ago, eurorders said:

did some higher level medals of royal and noble houses travel with their owners in exodus to the neutral states of Europe during both WWI and WWII?

Given the way the European courts work I would expect this to be true. This doesn't mean they have entered the collector's market. Many of these orders are still being circulated within those families. The quality is great so it's not a problem some of these pieces are 100+ years old.

4 hours ago, eurorders said:

did fine orders of decoration and high level ones migrate to the neutral nations of Europe during WWI and WWII?

Decorations were made in the 'neutral' countries both during WW1 and WW2. The Dutch Order of Oranje-Nassau was produced during WW2 in Portugal (these pieces are known for their rough quality) and by Spinks in London. Certain Serbian and Romanian orders were also produced in France during WW1 when the mints in their respective home countries were unable to function.

Lastly the picture of the medals on the steps of the Reichstag.

Kind regards, Laurentius

There was a consensus within the collecting community that when the wall would fall a stream of orders and decorations would come into the market. This, for several reasons, was however not to be.

Their thoughts were not illogical, after all the former German Democratic Republic held the lands that had previously belonged to two grandduchies (both the mecklenburgs), five normal duchies (Anhalt, Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha, Sachsen-Meiningen, Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach, Saxe-Altenburg), four principalities (Reuß older and new line, Schwarzburg-Sonderhausen and Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt) and two kingdoms (Saxony and Prussia). Prussia was stretched out from the river Memel in Lithuania to the French border but the majority of the elite live in estates east of the iron curtain (mostly also east of the river Oder, lands now in Polish hands). This means that 13/25 German states where now in Eastern Germany despite it's relatively small size, with the elite (the junkers of Prussia) living on estates there or in the capital Berlin, also cut in two.

Now, despite this multitude of states with their multitude of different decorations the stream of medals after the fall of the wall was little. Sure, some items came our way but much less than we expected. There are several reasons for this:

1. After the fall of the Third Reich the Soviet Russian army swept the land and took away all things valuable. Machines, art, furniture but also decorations (who is not familiar with the picture of the two Soviet soldiers on the steps of the Reichstag building with hundreds of medals at their feet?). Not even the palaces of the former rulers where saved from this.

2. When the Russian army left (which they never really did untill 1989) the German Democratic government started to destroy the old estates to make farms. Most country houses where demolished for building materials or redesigned for public use. This is the reason why we don't find anything in those attics, since people have already gone through them.

3. The junkers that did not live on estates, or who didn't live on estates when the curtain fell and Hitler took his live lived in the cities. Heavily bombed, many great houses and palaces here too were destroyed. The same goes for the many jewellers whose shops burned out or were turned to rubble. Not just medals, but also architecture, art and furniture where lost here.

4. Last but not least the German Democratic Republic traded in medals, uniforms and helmets to get access to foreign currencies. The decorations found in the great houses not yet robbed, together with collections which the stasi took off collectors where sold.

These are the four primary reasons why there was little offering from former East Germany. I have not accounted for things like bartering (do I want a full stomach or grandpapa's medals?) and melting down for money. Things have come from behind the curtain but alas, due to the course of history, not in the way we hoped.

Kind regards, Laurentius

2 hours ago, freiherr said:

Here only SA2aKD

His NgL3 (Order of the Golden Lion of Nassau) is far more interesting, and far more rare than most of his other orders.

The people at the archive managed to find out his personal papers which they have given to me. These five pages largely contain information about his military career, although it was written after his death by someone only vaguely familair with the inner workings of the military apparatus, hence a few mistakes.

Under 9. we can see that Benno Kramer had part in a fight on the ukrainian front, the name is indecipherable to me sadly. This explains both the Franz-Joseph Orden and the Austrian commemorative medal. Furthermore he was present at Langemarck-Ypern, St-Quentin and the battle of the Somme. Some of the heaviest fighting on the western front took place there. It is a comforting thought to know that he was there to give peace of mind to the soldiers not far from death.

This document Shows his decorations. Note the many mistakes. He received the Hohenzollernerische Ehrenkreuz 3. klasse mit Schwertern, not the Hohenzollernerische Hausorden. If it weren't for the Fürstlich added as an adjective one might believe he received the HoHx. It is also described that the received the 'offizierskreuz' 2. klasse of the 'Hoher Österreichischer Franz Josephs Orden' which is also wrong. He received the Ritterkreuz 4. klasse. These mistakes appear sloppy, but wouldn't lead a experienced collector astray. The last description however would put a researcher on a wrong path. He wore the Austrian commemorative medal with swords. He did not have the Austrian bravery medal with swords and crown. 

Although they only had five pages his personal files give a small insight into his daily life. This combined with his eulogy and other information I found out paints a picture of a kind, compassionate man devoted to his parish. All one could wish for in a priest.

Kind regards, Laurentius

9 hours ago, Deutschritter said:

Kriegserinnerungsmedaille (Österreich) with swords to the right

It is, combined with the ÖFJ it gives me the impression he did something with the Austrians too.

7 hours ago, Komtur said:

HEK3X

 

Kramer, Benno, Lazarett-Pfarrer in Roulers, Etappeninspektion 4. Armee am 22.10.1916

Thank you Komtur, you're a great help

Dear fellow collectors,

I bought these pictures a few months ago and I managed to identify them with the help of the Freiburg archdiocese archive. Benno Friedrich Kramer was born in 1888 in Hechingen and died in Jungingen in 1949. When he died he was spiritual counselor, papal secret chamberlain and chaplain of the Malteserorden. His work as a priest was interrupted by service as a 'feldgeistlicher' from 1914 to 1918. During this time he received the EKII, HEK3x and the ÖFJ3. Would it be possible to find out the exact dates? Attached you'll find his pictures and his record.

Kind regards and thanks in advance, Laurentius

2 hours ago, waldo said:

The widened lower edge is intended to indicate that all golden parts are only gold-plated.

Really? Very interesting. I had been told that the wider rim had been adopted at the same time as the switch from gold to silver happened because of complaints of enamel damage by recipients. You learn something everyday, thank you for your comment.

11 hours ago, spolei said:

950

It's 950 I believe, I checked it once.

I was never aware that BMVO's were also made in 980 silver, was that common?

Kind regards, Laurentius

Here we have two pieces by Gebrüders Hemmerle of Munich. On the left we have an early piece with gold medaillon and on the right is a late piece with silver medaillon. The lower arm has a smaller patch of enamel on the backside for protection.

Here is the promised picture of the backside. If @Schießplatzmeister is correct it is a spangenstück, which I don't mind. I have a feeling that the Prinzregent Luitpold-medaille doesn't belong here but I don't think it was a volkspflege, the white edges are too thin for that. I have a feeling we're looking at Lippe or perhaps something Ottoman. Thanks for your replies.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Dear fellow collectors,

I received this bar last week and I have a strange feeling with the Prinzregent Luitpold-medaille at the end. The ring wasn't tucked in (which I did, for appearances' sake) and given the fact that it looks polished and unworn I wondered if any of the collectors here would be willing to give their opinion on the piece? I know there were several versions of this medal with differerent monetary values so a small switcheroo wouldn't surprise me.

Kind regards and thanks in advance, Laurentius

Ps. The picture of the backside of the medal was too large to upload, I'll take more pictures tomorrow.

Medalbar of a Bavarian Landwehr officer

11 minutes ago, David M said:

Cant really make out if the X on 3 are swords or sables.

Swords I think, could also be a Saxe-Ernistine Hausorden

Dossenbach seems to have a third award on this ribbonbar which does not correspond with the list given by Deutschritter. The ribbon seems to be red-ish, although these old black-and-white pictures can be deceiving.

Kind regards, Laurentius

On 14/09/2021 at 07:28, GdC26 said:

Same here:

 

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=2539&lot=544

Thank you for this link Sandro, it's not often that we can put a face (even if it is a metal plaque rather than a photo) on jewelers of the past.

Kind regards, Laurentius

12 hours ago, FAR 32 said:

Hello folks.  It seems nobody finds the medal bar I presented above interesting enough to provide any feedback. 

Most likely because it is a WW2 medalbar whereas you are in a forum aimed at German states (which ends in 1918 with some notable exceptions, such as the exile-pieces already mentioned). Not to mention the fact that the question regarding your medalbar is posted in a thread which has an active discussion on a different medalbar.

12 hours ago, FAR 32 said:

I'm certainly not Komtur, but calling the OP's medal bar a Frankenstein bar is a bit extreme.  You're basing your conclusion on flimsy reasons like the bow becoming detached, the Geneva cross falling off, and a post-1918 HOH??  Life went on after the fall of the Kaiser, you know.    

Wondering whether a medalbar is a 'Frankenstein' is justified in my opinion when ample evidence is given, as @91-old-inf-reg does. He gives us four (solid in my opinion) indications that something might be wrong. There is ofcourse the possibility that the bar is genuine and that he is mistaken. It is merely a continuation of the discussion which might lead to different perspectives on the piece.

12 hours ago, FAR 32 said:

While the awards appear to be gilt silver, this is not at all surprising.  Are you aware that it was not unusual for important and affluent people to have numerous medal bars tailored for themselves?  The ones with gold decorations were worn to gala events and the ones with gilt were worn on less formal occasions. 

Here too I have to disagree, silver-gilt in Prussian decorations usually points us at a post-1916 production date, which given the decorations (starting off in 1870, which means the recipient was born in or before 1852) could illicite suspicion regarding the pieces. @Komtur points us at the possibility that the HoH is either a post-1918 exile-production or a private-purchase piece. Simply because it is silver-gilt does not mean that it is private-purchase. There are official pieces made in silver-gilt and private-purchase pieces made in gold. The material alone is not enough to base a conclusion on. The conclusion was made based on the material and the quality.

Is medalbar a Frankenstein-piece? I don't know. There are some things about this bar that assure me that is genuine whereas some other features make me frown. There is not enough 'wrong' to consider it fake or an amalgamation, but there is also not enough 'right' for me to consider it genuine (at this point). It is a civilian bar and those are always tricky. They are incredibly hard to identify (those who can are masters in their art, hence the reason we call them wizards sometimes) and there was much less control regarding the right way of wearing decorations. The little missing red cross on the second KO4 could be damage. Someone could have left out the bow on the RAO3Kr. Perhaps the HoH is a private-purchase or exile-piece. Lots of 'if' which can only be solved through discussion and the meeting of minds.

Kind regards, Laurentius

51 minutes ago, GODISHIGH said:

is this an earlier version of the order?

It's not the first model of 1848-1849. This is a later version. Looks good to me, pity about the small damage though.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Dear Nubirus,

The Order of Peter Friedrich Ludwig was marked 'B. Knauer' untill the early twenties afterwhich they switched to 'Knauer'. If the B is missing one is dealing with a postwar-piece. Given the difference in quality between the B and Knauer I very much wonder if someone has been busy with a hammer and a screwdriver. I have some more doubts about the piece, but given the difficult nature of this order when it comes to the details I will await the opinion of more knowledgeable members.

Kind regards, Laurentius

20 minutes ago, Daniel Krause said:

No HOH for Manfred.

So he is one of the rare Prussians who got the Iron Cross, the Pour Le Merite but not the HoH? seems a bit weird, you usually see that more with non-Prussians like Erwin Rommel.

Kind regards, Laurentius

2 hours ago, VtwinVince said:

Details of this guy's service are quite astonishing, especially the age at which he became an aviator.

He must have thought the sky was the limit, just look at the White Falcon, he was preparing for something grand.

18 hours ago, Deutschritter said:

Please look at the picture (surely private), he is wearing his Ritterkreuz II. Klasse as a Komturkreuz (neck order).

That would make for a nice addition to the mistakes in wear thread. Lovely picture overall.

Kind regards, Laurentius

48 minutes ago, dedehansen said:

I believe No. 3 ist an Albrechtsorden.

I concur, followed by a Kronenorden and a Friedrichsorden. A fine bar, would make for a nice result

2 hours ago, Deutschritter said:

Regierungsrat Maximilian „Max“ Theodor Schaetzell

Possible, but I don't think so. Schaetzell is shown to be a Rechtsritter since 1854, whilst my guy is an Ehrenritter. Did you find this information in the Sachsen-Anhalt Staatsbuch?

On a unrelated note, my guy looks a bit like Otto von Bismarck, who was also an Ehrenritter, although he did have a tendency to wear the little white cross on his jacket too.

Kind regards, Laurentius

In this piece about an ironforge in the Harz area describes Schaetzell as a 'Staatsminister', just as you said. Wouldn't  a staatsminister have more than 'just' a Johanniter-Orden? 

http://webdoc.sub.gwdg.de/ebook/ga/2002/pub/kunst/01H313/prom.pdf

Dear fellow collectors,

I recently won this painting at an auction. I received it last week, send it out to a restorer for a new frame (quite the hassle with an octagon-shaped painting) and now it's finished and hanging on the wall. A lovely portrait of a Johanniter Ehrenritter. Given the type of clothing and the manner of painting I would place this painting between 1860 and 1880. On the back of the frame is written 'Ballenstedt' with a blue pencil. Could this be a clue about the identity of the owner? Ballenstedt is a German last name but also the name of a town in Saxony-Anhalt. I am aware most members of the Prussian Order of St. John are not written down in lists but I wondered if anyone could take a look for the name Ballenstedt? He has no other decorations so anyone named Ballenstedt in the list with additional bling can be quickly discarded as the possible painted person.

I know it's a long shot and that we probably won't end up with a identification but I'm greatful for all the help I get.

Kind regards and thanks in advance, Laurentius

3 minutes ago, Great Dane said:

According to the Swedish State Calendar, he was awarded the Commander 1. class i 1908.

That is his son Sir Colin Richard Keppel, we are looking for the decorations of Sir Henry Keppel. Graf has used both the names Henry and Colin in his first reaction, giving rise to the misunderstanding. Sir Henry Keppel died in 1904. His son became an admiral in 1908 and received the Swedish Order of the Sword that year.

Kind regards, Laurentius