Wild Card

Gentlemen, One can only agree with the points and statements raised and made above. While I will resist the temptation to elaborate on many of them, I would like to speak to a situation, category, whatever... as yet unmentioned. We have at this forum an incredible amount of talent and knowledge relevant to the orders and decorations of Imperil Germany. I would ask that we keep it in mind that not every (what we would consider) legitimate collector is a member of this group. When I started collecting, almost thirty years ago, I wandered around ?alone? for a couple of years before I discovered OMSA and the fact that there were many otherwise perfectly sane people out there who also collected these little treasures. Fortunately, at that OMSA convention, in 1979, I met George Seymour and Eric Ludvigsen who were to become two of my very closest friends. For the next twenty plus years we, along with Neal O?Connor, and later Tony Colson, were like family. We shared life and knowledge among ourselves, and of course with any others who asked. As time went on, even Tony and I were able to help the senior members. Tony?s knowledge is well known by most of the forum members - I was the slow learner; but able to be of help in other ways. I am sure that if they had kept a list of the many dumb questions I would ask over the ensuing years, we would all have a good laugh. My knowledge of PLM?s is woefully limited, and I know even less when it comes to Saxony - they aren?t my thing; but how many times have I explained whether the horse?s tail should be up or down (refer to the thread ?Changes?) or why this is a German, not British, Guelphic commander?s badge. I am only asking that we remain tolerant of others?, especially new collectors, questions; and, above all, encourage them. We have a wonderful avocation, made so in great part by it?s members. Remember, the new collectors are its future; so again I ask, please be tolerant and encourage. Respectfully, Wild Card

Absolutely! His piece is a beautiful example of an important transition - post 1907 medallion border change with the pre 1912 horse by Siebricht. I hope that he will oblige us. Wild Card

Details.

Last example.

With regard to our last example, I must open with an apology and explanation. While I had hoped to present this thread using Commander?s badges exclusively, I was not able to get the right piece for this last part back home in time, so I will be substituting a Grand Cross badge, with swords above, which resides closer to home in its place. Here we see the final two changes. First is the change to the white border of the obverse medallion which in 1907 was changed from the ?saw tooth? to the ?sickle? pattern. The second change addresses that perennial question as to whether the horse?s tail should be up or down. Well, here it is - the answer is - (drum roll) - both! As we have seen, since 1834, the horse?s tail has been in what is referred to as the ?down? position. In 1912, the firm of Hermann J?rgens succeeded Siebrecht as the Brunswick house jeweler; and it was at this time that the change to the horse?s tail was made. I hope that this information has been useful. Best wishes, Wild Card

Details.

Third example.

Our third example, which, with an early Siebrecht mark, probably dates between 1880 and 1900 presents yet more changes. First, we see that that white border has progressed from the feathered to the more widely known ?saw tooth? pattern. The star on the obverse arm at twelve o?clock is no longer separately applied; but is now painted - and usually lost among the feathers. Also, the star at six o?clock on the border of the reverse medallion has finally appeared. Now, two things about this. Exactly when this came into being, I can not say; but what is really interesting is that the statutes, at least up to 1902 do not appear to mention or illustrate it. If anyone out there has any information on this point, it would be most welcome.

Details.

Next example.

This next example picks up nicely where the first left off. Here we see the beginning of the changes. Most obvious is the engraving on both sides of the crowned monograms; and we are also beginning to see subtle changes with the feathering of that inner line of the white border of the obverse medallion. Also, where suspension rings throughout tended to be oval, this one, as seen from time to time, approaches being round. I would date this piece from the mid forties to early fifties.

Details.

First example.

Gentlemen, Occasionally we encounter a piece which just doesn?t look quite right. Is it good or not? Why is it not exactly as we expect it to be, what we have come to accept as correct, what we consider to be the standard? Going with the premise that the piece is perfectly genuine, the answer is most often - time. Over time the look and characteristics of pieces changed. Sometimes, such as with the center obverse medallions of the Prussian Crown Order and the Saxon Albert Order, these changes are official and immediately recognizable; other times, they evolve and are much more subtle. With medals, dies often broke and replacements were not always 100% identical to the originals. As the result of a discussion on another thread, I would like to present a brief study of changes as they apply to the Brunswick Order of Henry the Lion. Although I am concentrating on Commander?s badges, the changes illustrated generally apply to the Grand Crosses and Knight?s badges as well. The first example is of a very early Commander?s badge which is as basic as you can get. I would date it between the founding of the order in 1834 and some point during the early 1840?s. This piece would have been made by the jeweler August Lemme who produced 98 Commander?s badges between 1834 and 1847. The distinguishing features of this badge which will see changes over time are: A. The solid narrow white border on the obverse medallion. The 1834 statutes show a very faint hint of ?feathering? on the inner line of this border; but other examples are consistent with the piece shown. The feathering is faintly evident on the Grand Crosses of this period. B. The separately applied gold star on the obverse side of the 12 o?clock arm. C. The smooth finish on the reverse of the crowned monograms between the arms of the cross. D. No star at 6 o?clock on the reverse medallion border.

A super presentation! Many thanks for sharing, Wild Card

Hi Mark - With regard to your question/suggestion (good idea) in post #57, above, I have made arrangements to have some pieces delivered which I think will help to illustrate the developmental changes to the Henry the Lion Order. It will take at least one day for them to get home; but once they arrive, I will start a separate thread for this subject. Best wishes, Wild Card

Hi mravery, A couple of very fine Henry the Lion pieces you have there. Your badge is a late Siebrecht piece - hence the ?S? mark. The real giveaway though is that classic Siebrecht horse. When I say a late Siebricht piece, I am referring to the fact that the side decoration on the center medallion is in the post 1907 style; and since Siebrecht lost the contract to Jurgens in 1912, there is a rather narrow window (1907-1912) for date of manufacture of this particular badge. My guess is that your star is a little, older - I would date it around 1880-1900 (any help out there?). You probably know all of this and I apologize for rambling off on it; but this order really gets me going. Again, very fine pieces - congratulations and best wishes. Wild Card

As I said before...?se.

Gentlemen, I think that the word we're looking for here might be eyelet; but in my opinion, nothing says it like ?se. After all we're talking Imperial German here. My vote - ?se! Best wishes, Wild Card

Helko, Thank you for the assurance regarding my clasp. I have to admit though that compared to yours (all of them!), mine looks pretty poor. Best wishes, Wild Card

Thank you very much, Joe. I have enjoyed every moment, or I should say, hour of preparing it; and have learned a bit along the way myself. Hopefully, it has enlightened others to some of the other areas of Imperial German collecting. Best wishes, Wild Card

A thinner ?se, part 2.

A thinner ?se

Gentlemen, To medalnet?s point in post #17, following are pictures of a cross marked ?AW? with a thinner ?se. Is this not the one you were referring to medalnet? Regards, Wild Card

Here they are -