Alex K

Just to add to the confusion, H Taprell Dorling in his book "Ribbons and Medals" seems to indicate that they are infact part of the same order but two divisions, ie civil and military, any ideas? regards Alex

jeff thanks for the info, so I assume that when Payne refers to these ?200 worth of forgeries, he probably refers to the NGS, he certainly seems to suggest this in the second paragraph I scanned. regards Alex

Hi Ed thanks for the reply, I hear and understand what you say, to summise (and this not an accusation but a clarification) that the medals listed from his collection, see attached, may not be what they seem? I have specifically picked some of his MGS medals with high number of bars as an example. Are there any rolls that could actually verify if the recipients listed actually are entitled to them? regards Alex

Hi Davey, Very interesting piece of memorabillia regards Alex

Hi Jeff thanks for that, interesting, so are you saying that for example a medal awarded to a soldier that had say three clasps but may have had additional clasps fitted to which he was obviously not entitles to just to fill a space in the collection with regards to clasps??and?that?these?may?the?ones?he?refers?to?as having??200?worth?of?forgeries,?he?seems?meticulous?in?catalogueing?his?collection, I never realised that the recipient was not important, in fact I suppose that he's the most important aspect Regards Alex

hi kev, following on from your earlier post re officers/enlisted men in his collection, reading further into the book he lists a great number of enlisted men in his collection, which I must summise he feels to be genuine , so I assume from this that he is not specifically reffering to only officers in his collection, although it could be inferred that "Lower Ranks" were possibly more prone to "adjusting their entitlement", As I understand it, a good military career at the time, together with medals to show this, stood a person in good stead in civilan life, A trustworthy soul etc etc regards Alex

Rick, I like the bit about the stone quarries! I suspect you are right, where's there's money there's gold as they say, on a serious note, it does make it that more difficult for us who collect these things to know what's what, particularly if things are faked so many years ago and turn up looking totally authentic with years of ageing about them regards Alex

Hi kev It's difficult for me to answer that question as I am only quoting verbatim from his book, I feel that he was (At the time) talking more about people not entitled to them rather than Renames, or it could be both, he doesn't elaborate unfortunately, I could be wrong however. I can scan in the whole preface (Only three pages out of the 800 thankfully) for people to make their own interpretation, I just found it interesting that forgeries as he calls them is nothing new, one can make comparisons here with TR, Renamed British or the whole pile of cr*p one can find on Ebay, It seems to me that the problem has ben around for many years regards Alex

part 2

I am reading a book by a gentleman named AA Payne LRCP,MRCS, entitled ?British and Foreign Orders War Medals and Decorations awarded to the Army and Navy?. This is basically a catalogue of his medal collection which comprised of 2500 medals! Mostly British but a high quantity of foreign decorations and is 800 pages long These include amongst others 108 Naval General Service Medals 1793-1840 ranging from 1 clasp to 5 clasps + boat service (All catalogued) Uncountable Waterloo and Military general Service Medals from 1-15 bars, and similar Army of India medals! (again catalogued) Plus numerous quantities of other campaign medals. (catalogued) To me the interesting point is the two following comments written in his book Copies attached. The whole point of this is that this book was written in 1911 !! What chance do people have nearly a hundred years later when it comes to medal collecting, he admits that he had ?200 UKP worth of forgeries in his collection (1911 remember), that must have bought a whole lot of fakes In those days, I wonder where these forgeries ended up?? And we think we have problems with modern forgeries! Regards

I stand corrected, it is a Potez regards

Thanks for the link. It does indeed say that they run parallel to each other so are infact two and not one, with two divisions as I had previously thought. regards Alex

Interesting that, I never realised that they were to distinct orders thanks for the info Regards

Hi Carol I Thanks for the information, I didn't realise that it was latin, I just assumed that it was cyrillic. I thought that the order of merit came in two distinct versions, a civil and a military, the crosses being the same basic shape, but different colour and the addition of swords for the military version. regards Alex K

Lukascz i don't know if this helps but regards Alex http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...l%3Den%26sa%3DN

Hi everyone very interesting, I must admit that I've never seen these conversions before, had I not have seen this post any cross looking like the ones posted that I may have come across, I would have dismissed as something produced by a biker in a silver plated M35 german helmet!! you live and learn, very informative post regards Alex

medal 2

Medal

name

Hi Rick just noticed this posting, nice piece of paperwork and interesting to see, Is that his real name? the reason for sticking my nose in is that I have the Attached document and decoration which matches yours, albeit different grade and period. The reason for my question is that unfortunately my knowledge of the cyrillic alphabet is more or less non existent now, although my father and grandfather etc came from that way. can you or someone you know translate the name of the person to whom this was awarded? The actual document is, as you have said in your posting much to large for my scanner so I've had to scan two halves and post edit them together thats why I've also attached the name which may not be to clear on the full document. Are there any records of these awards and as to why the recipient may have received them? The decoration itself is of extremely fine quality but as yet I havn't found a maker mark, the ribbon is original together with a modern replacement, unfortunately no case.. my embossing in contrast to yours shows the civil version of the order any help greatly appreciated technically I suppose I should have put this in the central European form as its neither Austrian or hungarian! REGARDS

Hi guys my moneys on an Avro Manchester, the earlier and smaller version of a lancaster, or possible a Hudson http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...l%3Den%26sa%3DG regards Alex

Hi Tony a question, you say that the medal on the left is to T E Peacock and that he wasn't entitled to it, If it is named on the back, I assume its either a rename or a blank named with him? Secondly the picture in the book from Taprell Dorling without the Nov date may just be a printing thing. The 1983 version of their book "Ribbons and Medals" makes no reference to a star without the nov date and the only pictures shown are 1914 and 1914-15 stars with nov date It makes me think that either they knew the basic shape of the star but were without for whatever reason full date details, since the time between approval and actually making and presenting the medal may have been considerable, or just that the Typesetter missed it off, IMO regards Alex

IMHO its a fake, the pin just isn't right, and as mentioned there is an awful lot of this stuff coming out from Russia and Poland etc, never seen an original 1935 ek1 stamped 800 regards

Jeff thanks for the info regards Alex

Hi Christophe very moving and an impressive place, it is edifying to think that countries build specific memorials to their countrymen who fell defending their country and beliefs, to me in this situation it doesn't really matter if they are original or repro, the message of so many medals on display seems to highlight the numbers of people involved. However If I put my medal collectors hat on, it is has bit of a "Wow" factor to it regards Alex