bob lembke

Fregatte; Poked thru my Ranglisten, which are spotty in the first decade of the 20th Century. I will give you an "as of" date, rank, decorations, and, importantly, the Bezirk to which he reported as a reserve officer. Others who have given help know much better, but I guess that the Bezirk is near to where Karl Meyer was living or working that year. In all of these points in time he was a reserve officer of Garde=Gren.=Regt. Nr. 5. 6. 5. 06. - Lt. d. R., Bezirk Coeln, no orders. 6. 5. 10. - Lt. d. R. with the highest seniority, Bezirk Hannover, has the Prussian Royal Crown Order 4th Class. 1. 5. 11. - Oberleutnant d. R, (low seniority, of course), Bezirk Hannover, same order as above. 6. 5. 12. - Oblt. d. R., Bezirk Hannover, has the order as above, plus the Landwehr Service Decoration 2nd Class (LD2). 6. 5. 14. - Oblt. d. R., Bezirk I Cassel, orders as above. Hope that that is of interest. Bob Lembke

Fregatte; I do not have the resources of some of the peoiple assisting you, but I have a fair collection of Ranglisten, weaker (sp?) from 1900 to 1910, more complete from 1910 to 1914. Do you want me to poke thru them and see if I can trace his militaty career over this period? Bob Lembke

fregate; Do you have a date of birth, or at least a rough idea of his age at a fixed point in time? With that, I may be able to find him in active service as a young Leutnant. I am guessing that he only did say two years on active duty, and then continued his education as a reserve officer. Glenn and Rick know a lot more than I do about the various career paths. Bob Lembke

fregate; You have gotten information from two of the very best, who have wonderful research materials. I have peeked in a few Ranglisten. I have not found him (the 99% absence of a first name, especially with a common family name, in Prussian Army documents of the period, is a severe problem - I was hoping that I would find him listed when he was on active duty), but I did see something that I hope is useful to you. In 1879 (I was hoping to catch him as a very young Leutnant) there was no Garde=Regiment Nr. 5 of any sort, I believe. As of 7. 5. 1900 there was a 5. Garde=Regiment zu Fuss, und auch ein Garde=Grenadier=Regiment Nr. 5. But no regiment as you described it. Neither had a Leutnant Meyer in 1900. Welcome to the Club. Bob Lembke

Yes, Garde, or one of a very small number of other units allowed to wear the Garde Litzen ("lace" on the collar and cuffs). Not a medal guy, but I think that the EK was only worn in that fashion, hanging from the EK ribbon in the button-hole, when just awarded. So probably the photo celebrates the award. Anyone know how long the cross was worn like that? The day of award? A few days? Would a EK I also be worn like that before being shifted to the left breast? What is the meaning of the crossed ribbons? Bob Lembke

Ralph; Thanks for sharing the interesting Pass. On post # 22, I am not getting a frequently used word. The first word in the entries of 28. 5. to 6. 6. 17. , 8. 12. 17. to 20. 3. 18. , and 28. 8. to 29. 8. 18. , among others? "Stellungskampf" ??? Also note on post # 23, on training. Gewehr 98, M. G., und Pistole 08. What you would expect. Am I right on the MG? Hardy the best penmanship; at least the same guy wrote a lot of it, so you have a bigger sample for puzzling out the execution of certain letters and words. A lot of these Paesse were completed after the war by less than inspired folk. Interesting how the handwriting in Paesse in the last say six months of the war got worse and worse, matching the generally crumbling infrastructure overall. Ralph: Do you collect these seriously? So few in the US seem to. Bob Lembke

Yes, it really should, probably an entry giving taking the course, the dates, etc., plus, ideally, a separate entry, probably a bit toward the front of the book from the other entry, of having been trained on the MG, atr the same place where it probably lists his being trained on the Gewehr 98 and the Pistole 08. My father's Pass lists his taking a three week "MG course for Pioniere", but the MG training is not listed in the list of weapons trained on as mentioned above. My father's list of weapons trained on lists (if memory serves) the Gewehr 98, the Karbine 98, the Flammenwerfer, and the Pistole 08. The MG course is the only one listed, although he told me of other courses, and I know that he had to have others, such as for the Flammenwerfer. Bob Lembke

Yes, I believe that Pionier=Regimente Nr. 35 u. 36 were two-battalion regiments, and as there must have been some sort of overall command of the gas effort, the regimental level of command was really not very necessary, as I would think that few gas attacks would have involved two or more battalions. With the serious shortage of officers, it made sense to eliminate this layer of command. I understand that four of the officers of Pionier=Regiment Nr. 35 later received Nobel Prizes in either chemistry or physics, including Haber, the interesting "father" of the German gas effort. Bob Lembke

Die Schlachten und Gefechte has no locations for IR 152 after December 1916, when it was fighting on the Western Front. Bob Lembke

My comments are in bold face. Bob Lembke

Rick; Can you make out the unit on the other cross? IR 152? That might help place where this was; references might give where that unit fought, if the whereabouts of S=B 2 at that time is not known. Bob Lembke

Looks like crossed guitars to me! Bob Lembke

This thread certainly evoked a lot of interest! Is there such a project under way? I could see a process where a person wishing to contribute data could give some ID and possibly qualifications to some sort of (saintly) administrator, and be given an ID and a password. (Or I guess we could rely on a Wikopedia form of trust; would mischief be likely?) The the contributor could open a record and put in the data he has, from three or four items from a death card to 30-40 fields of info from a Militaer=Pass, and his contribution would be tagged with his ID, perhaps not visibly to others. (if there was junk or malicious input, that would be useful for damage control.) If funds would be required it might be possible to give free access to data contributors, but charge a small amount to others, perhaps say $0.50 per record, less for large extracts, or perhaps a modest annual fee, perhaps payable by PayPal. But hopefully that would not be necessary. If it would be possible to get the cooperation of the German war graves society it might be possible to obtain their WW I machine readable data on about 1.5 million (Is that right?) soldiers in one swoop. Bob Lembke

Paul; A very nice Pass; as you see just chock full of information. I assume that, between the German and in particular the Suetterlin and Kurrent script systems, you can't read the blessed thing. I don't think that there is a lot of collecting of Paesse in the US, for this reason. You asked about Freikorps. I have a remarkable Pass, of a NCO in the field artillery, with a rich and decorated career, who then joined a Freikorps, and then later the Reichswehr. All three services are recorded in one Militaer=Pass. I have never seen or heard of another example of such a document. Certainly my father's Freikorps service is not recorded in his Pass. Bob Lembke

These Militaer=Paesse are potentially tremendous historical resources, but due to their distribution all over the place, since they were eventually given to the soldier upon discharge and then blown about by the winds of chance, their systematic use is very limited. I have found that study of even two or three of these from a given unit clarifies many details about the organization and history of that unit. My hope is that some day there could be some sort of index of these Paesse in the hands of various collectors who would be willing to share or swap copies of their Paesse for research purposes. One collector has put a list of some of his Paesse on line; as far as I know this is the only effort in this direction. This sort of effort would be, of course, all the more useful since most of the original records of most of the German WW I forces were destroyed in the bombing of the Prussian archives in WW II. (Is there any truth to the claims that some of these records are actually now surfacing, since they were carted off to the lair of the Big Bear, not destroyed in the war?) Every collector has his own purposes; personally, I am more of a collector of information, rather than artifacts and objects. So many collectors of Paesse would not be interested in such a cooperative effort, but I think many would. Several very kind collectors have given me copies of interesting Paesse that I have used in my research on German storm units, and I have happily provided them with copies of other interesting Paesse, upon occasion. A central index of these documents would be great. Possibly there would be a system by which collectors providing copies to researchers would then earn credits to in turn obtain copies from other cooperating collectors. We mostly like to hoard our little treasures, I fear, but there are many generous collectors generously sharing their jems. A similar resource are award documents, which provide less information than Paesse, but are very interesting and also useful. Bob Lembke

Commenting on my mention of a German e-friend who would like to create, as much as possible, a roster of WW I German soldiers, Rick Research indicated that there is a Grand Plan in this area, being worked on by some people. Anyone able to chime in and comment on what this effort is? It is clear that such a project would need quite a cooperative effort to be successful, unless someone found a source for a budget on the scale of the Manhattan Project. I have thought about how this could be done a bit, and as I have had years of experience building, maintaining, and using very large data bases for research purposes, my ideas might be a useful input. Some aspects of computer and data systems seem to change overnight, but a lot of the basics remain chiseled in stone, much like the laws of physics applying to the Wright Flyer and the RB-71 are the same. I was thinking that if some consensus was reached on some technical issues, at the minimum some of us happily working away on mini-rosters of one sort or purpose or another could employ some common flexible formatting so that when the happy day arrives that sees an actual launch of a major roster project, our own individual work will not have strayed too far up a variety of technical dead ends. Bob Lembke

So there is a GRAND PLAN? Great! If I start a thread, someone will aim me at the action? Since I worked for years creating, maintaining, and using data-bases with hundreds of thousands or millions of records, while struggling with the computer resources of 25-30 years ago, and additionally know something about this sort of data, I could hopefully be of use. Will launch a new thread tonight. Thanks, Bob Lembke

Since I seem to have a great herd of medal collectors knowledgable about the Turkish Half Moon in the room, I might ask a question. I have some of my father's medals, but not two that he said that he was awarded. (I don't even know if he actually physically received them.) One was the Gallipoli Half Moon. I have satisfied myself that his oral history was correct and that he did fight there with the volunteer Pionier=Kompagnie. He said that he was entitled to the medal. I imagine, as a private, he would have gotten the cheaply-made Turkish version, but would have been entitled to buy a jeweler-made one if he wished. I would like to assemble his few medals, including second examples of his original medals that I have (only the EK II - awarded 1921, I have the document, Hindenburg Cross, and Black Wound Badge - for 4 wounds!, plus a minature lapel bar.), and the two others, when I verify that he actually was awarded them, or at least that it was likely, and case them for display. Any advice on getting the Half Moon, possibly the Turkish made, or a garden-variety German-made? I occasionally go to Turkey, but the comments suggest that that might not be the best place for this. And is it reasonable that a German private who actually volunteered and fought at Gallipoli, got malaria, but not wounded, was awarded the right to wear one, as opposed to some Oberleutnant who held a door open for a visiting Turkish general in 1918? Bob Lembke

I still haven't gone out the door, but I want to take a swing, "while the iron is hot". It seems that several of us are working on mini-rosters, or might be interested. Perhaps, before a grand scheme can be organized, if possible, we can come to some agreement on some technical issues so that we do not individually wander up blind alleys that would make later cooperation more difficult. I am moderately familiar with spread-sheets but not an expert. Eventually a large roster should probably be resident in something known as a "relational data base" (here I am running on my expertise of 15 years ago), but most of us, including me, at present, do not have access to these. I am assuming that data structured in one or more major spreadsheet programs (I personally use Quattro Pro) could eventually be imported into a major relational data base. Some software firms that produce spreadsheet software also have created a relational database, and I assume that they can import data at least from their own spreadsheet software. Also, spreadsheet programs can probably import and convert data from some other spreadsheet systems. My word processor can import and convert documents from, I believe, 46 different word processing programs. So, perhaps we can confirm this, and then possibly come to some agreement to a spreadsheet format suitable for a roster of German WK I soldiers, officers and OR/EM. A spreadsheet could of course later be manipulated and massaged into a different format, but it might be preferable to start out with some commonality. Of course, especially with officers, one can easily dream up 30 or 50 possible different variables per individuals, but they could be added later, and of course for any given man one would have a very small sub-set, for example, last name, but no first name, rank as of a given date, unit as of a given date, etc., etc. I have two rosters for units forming; for one I have about 1200 men, for another only say ten, but I could have say 500 for that unit, based on material at hand. Unfortunately, I will want to keep these close to my chest until I publish something I am writing, but in the meanwhile it might be desirable to work with a common format for roster entries. (I have lots of other material/individuals that I would be happy to enter immediately in a publically available data base.) Does this interest anyone? Should we start a thread on this; this is related to the original topic, but has wandered off a bit? Bob Lembke

Yes, of course. I myself have wondered about a Vize=Feldwebel oder Feldwebel=Leutnant standing up to a Generalleutnant and telling him that his plan to attack Sector X is dog-poop. The same order had other features; for example, that FW were only to be rarely used in defensive efforts. But of course it idea fits into the larger picture of German command theory; how the leader at the point of contact, never mind his rank, was supposed to figure out to do his assigned task, which was put in terms of the desired objective, not detailed plans as to how to reach that objective. I just read another example of the British style of command; after the first german flame attack against the british, at Hooge, how the brigadier at the spot was ordered to counter-attack with his decimated battalion across 400 yards of open land into the face of MGs and a certain withering barrier barrage; he telegraphed asking that the attack not be carried out, as it had zero chance of any success, but eventually he had to order the charge at 2:35 PM, as ordered, and in 5-10 minutes there probably only was 20 men of the battalion left, still hundreds of yards from the new German line. This order, of course, was ordered by Red Tabs say 20 miles behind the lines, any drummer boy or teamster on the location could tell that the attack was suicidal. I read things like this often in the English language literature; it seems to be inconceivable in the German Army of the period. First of all, staffers removed from the lines would not tell the officer on the spot how to get their objective, and officers could decide to not carry out or deviate from direct orders, if their opinion was otherwise; in a case like that at a higher pay grade the officer ignoring his written orders would dictate a memo to files explaining why he ignored his orders. But to directly answer your question; I have not seen a case of a sergeant telling a major general that his attack plan is fatally flawed. As a collector of documents, you can appreciate that that is not the sort of conversation likely to be recorded. But the flame platoon was sent to the army corps for the attack by the OHL, based on an application by the army corps to OHL for FW support, and that a written report on every single flame attack, even by say one or two Truppen, was presented to the OHL every month. This direct reporting of the attack, even by a platoon, in addition to the existence of the written order, put the platoon leader in a strong position; if they were sent into a stupid attack, and 5 or 10 men killed, in a week or two a written report, including the names and rank of every lost man, would be presented, probably to Colonel Bauer, at OHL, possibly in person by the regimental commander. A situation that the sensible army corps commander would appreciate. Another channel of communication; the Crown Prince frequently dropped into my father's flame company barracks, Pop told me, and his letters home also reported, him caging cigarettes from the Crown Prince himself; the men wore the Crown Prince's personal symbol, the Death's Head, on their sleeve; another top storm unit wore his monogram on their sleeves; the COs of the two storm units were personally very well connected to the Crown Prince. I see so many examples of the blind obedience to flawed orders is in the English-language literature in the Allied armies; multiple cases of Special Brigade troops opening up the taps of 1000 cylinders of clorine gas at 7 AM, as ordered, despite the wind having shifted into the British trenches, in one case then fleeing themselves supposedly with the wrenches, so that 2 hrs 5 minutes later the gas was still poisoning Brit troops, especially the wounded brought into the trench and necessarily laid on the trench floor, in the gas; or the horse-happy Red Tabs sending the new weapon, the tank, into the worst spot of the line, perhaps a sea of mud. Bob Lembke

Great gem of a find! I have a German e-friend who actually has an interest (or a dream) of creating, as much as possible, a roster of the WW I German Army. I know that that sounds nuts. I spent a lot of my life building and managing multi-million record data bases, with the computer technology of 25-30 years ago. I sketched out a rough scheme to do this for him, of course centered on volunteer effort by qualified students of the war. The idea is not (quite) as crazy as it sounds. Bob Lembke

Quickly, another example. I think that I have detailed this before. A platoon sergeant or a second lieutenant, commanding a German flame platoon, might be sent with his men 100 miles to participate in an attack; he had the right to review the plan of attack, prepared by or under the authority of a Generalleutnant or a General der Infantrie (full general), and state that he was of the opinion that the plan of attack was deficient, did not properly employ the flame weapon, and that he and his platoon would not be participating in the attack unless the plan was revised. And the NCO or junior lt. had a written order from OHL (i.e., Hindenburg and Ludendorff, the latter the virtual dictator of Germany) laying out his right to approve the attack order. I cannot think of any delegation of authority to storm leaders remotely like this on the Allied side. Anyone? And you may be sure that this right of review had a major role in flame units having an average of one KIA or DOW per flame attack, with no one killed in the majority of attacks. My father wrote a letter to his staff officer father describing an attack with three killed and 12 wounded as a "catastrophe". Bob Lembke

GWF. I just saw the mention of it, but did not look at the topic carefully; have to fly out the door with some work in hand. I don't know how I can participate. I have done a bit of research in the UK, but don't see myself getting there in the near future. Just a couple of the things that set the German storm formations at a different level. - All the men, with the exception of more senior types, were to be under 25 and unmarried. They wanted men who, in the words of one of the two greatest definers of storm troop technique; "had a death-defying joy of combat". - I will argue that a storm Trupp leader (unit of 9-10 men), who was a lance corporal or junior sergeant (or in my father's case, an ordinary private; having shot his coy. CO, shot a sergeant, and kicked in the face of another sergeant with his hob-nails; he was not getting any promotions, or medals aside from his wound badge) had more freedom of action and private decision making than a Brit lt.-colonel commanding a battalion, at least until say late 1916. Perhaps Allied units on storm duty had different command concepts. But as I do not know of specific Allied storm units (aside from the Italians), only elite 'ordinary" units detailed to a given attack, I think the old top-down detailed management habits largely stuck. Bob Lembke

Hi, Chris; Just saw this group of documents. Very nice! I just came across a little trove of info about Sturm=Bataillon Nr. 9, so if you are interested get to me. Bob Lembke

You are right; Naxos said battalion, not regiment. My serving e-friend is not M. K. However, I will check what he wrote (despite my error with what Naxos wrote, I am 95% confident that my serving e-friend said regiment. Additionally, I will write him and ask him if the notation would also cover a battalion, as well as a regiment. Again, thanks for your help and tolerance. This discussion may seem like a cat chasing it's tail, but is quite useful to me. Bob Lembke