ThaiDave

Socialist Republic of Vietnam – Combatant Order Hi All, I am adding SRV pages to my website, and I had some questions from the SRV collectors out there : 1. Does anyone have any other variations? 2. Does anyone know what these other items are from (stone and copper)? 3. Does anyone have pictures or other info for the two early DRV types ? Or any certificates ? 5. Does anyone have additional references for this order ? The draft page is here: http://www.indochinamedals.com/srv/o-07_combatant_order.html Rgds Dave

Hi All, I am adding SRV pages to my website, and I had some questions from the SRV collectors out there : 1. This order was created by decree in 2003, and ratified in 2004. The design was given in the decree of 2006. Does anyone know when it actually came out ? in 2004 (was their earlier design info elsewhere ?) or only in 2006 when the design details were decreed ? 2. There are two types of 2004/6 version ribbon. The red/blue version is not matching the 2006 design decree, however was reported in Ed Emering’s article as being valid. (size is smaller and color different) Maybe this was version in 2004 ? and 2006 version was final ? Anybody know ? 3. Does anyone have additional references for this order ? The draft page is here: http://www.indochinamedals.com/srv/o-06_fatherland_defence_order.html Rgds Dave

Socialist Republic of Vietnam – Military Exploit Order Hi All, I am adding SRV pages to my website, and I had some questions from the SRV collectors out there : 1. Does anyone have any other variations? 2. The 1959 US Army publication shows without wreath. Anyone ever seen other evidence of this for an early type ? (that is not just one with a removed/lost wreath) 3. Does anyone have any more pictures of the early DRV type ? 4. Does anyone have additional references for this order ? The draft page is here: http://www.indochinamedals.com/srv/o-04_military_exploit_order.html Rgds Dave

Socialist Republic of Vietnam – Labor Order Hi All, I am adding SRV pages to my website, and I had some questions from the SRV collectors out there : 1. Does anyone have any other variations? 2. There seems to be one authentic early numbered type. What other numbers do people have ? Has anyone been able to research recipients ? 3. I came across a more modern looking couple examples with numbering, which also have unusual colors. Presumably this is a copy ? Anyone else ever seen this type ? 4. There is a crude type with numbers out there. Presumably this is a copy. What other numbers do people have ? When do people remember first seeing this type ? 5. Does anyone have additional references for this order ? The draft page is here: http://www.indochinamedals.com/srv/o-05_labor_order.html Rgds Dave

Socialist Republic of Vietnam – Independence Order Hi All, I am adding SRV pages to my website, and I had some questions from the SRV collectors out there : 1. Does anyone have any other variations, or know when/where any were made ? 2. Does anyone know of recipients lists ? 3. Does anyone have any other early DRV-type pictures ? 4. Does anyone have additional references for this order ? The draft page is here: http://www.indochinamedals.com/srv/o-03_independence_order.html Rgds Dave

Hi All, I am adding SRV pages to my website, and I had some questions from the SRV collectors out there : 1. Does anyone have any other modern type pictures ? 2. I have come across 3 types reproductions of this order. Does anyone have any other different copy types or have any others with fake numbers ? (same or other numbers) Or when they starting seeing these on the market ? Or who has been making them ? 3. Does anyone know of recipients lists ? 4. Does anyone have any other early DRV-type pictures, or any people wearing other than Giap ? Or know which museums these pictures are from ? 5. Does anyone have additional references for this order ? The draft page is here: http://www.indochinamedals.com/srv/o-02_ho_chi_minh_order.html Rgds Dave

Hi All, I am adding SRV pages to my website, and I had some questions from the SRV collectors out there : 1. I have come across several reproductions of this order. Does anyone have any other different copy types, have the reported early copy with plain back (without branches), have any other "numbered" reverses or duplicates of the numbers I have seen (30, 31, 33), know who made any of these, or remember when they may have first seen any of these ? (a previous report in 2000 didn't seem to indicate copies yet, but by 2003 there were 2 known copies made by Vietnamese dealers). 2. Does anyone know what the gold-star like badge is in the attached picture ? It was found in Vietnam perhaps in last 1990s. 3. Has anyone ever seen actual or a picture of the design given in the 1959 US Army publication (see attached pic) ? 4. Does anyone have additional references for this order ? The draft page is here: www.indochinamedals.com/srv/o-01_gold_star_order.html Rgds Dave

Hi All, Reading thru the 1909 decrees, it says that they improved the appearance, and therein describe the "2nd type", so this seems the date of the design change on paper. The previous Thai orders book (red cover book shown in above post) says the same, although this description is placed in the book before the pictures of the 2nd type, so it could be a little confusing for non-Thai reader looking only at the dates. In the Thai orders book, the 1941 decree is placed at the 2nd type pictures. It's interesting that there are only a handful of pictures certain (picture with actual direct evidence of date of picture) to be before 1941 showing the 2nd type (and another handful which have some evidence to be before 1941, but not 100% certain - i.e. presumed date but could be early uniform worn later, etc). Most of the pics seen are foreigners - I've seen only 1 picture of a Royal Thai suspected to be before 1940s with 2nd type (personal collection from a major Thai collector/dealer, and it was the only one he said he saw also). Presumably there must be lots of pictures out there from this period (1909-1941). The early specimens 2nd type seem to be rare. I collect by date and variety, and I have seen only a few which appear to be very very old (potentially before 1950s). (I have about 400 examples, and probably seen in-hand another 1000, so perhaps it might be some kind of evidence?). Many of the examples which appear to be older are dated, and I think the earliest dated example I've seen is 2496 (1953). My Thai collector friends don't report earlier dated pieces (but Thai's don't collect medals much, with few deeply interested, so it's not so definitive. Thai instead focus on Buddhist medals/amulets). However, with this information, and that it has been a while since I carefully looked at them, I'll have to have a critical re-look... The 2nd type example above (in JapanX post) appears somewhat to be similar to Benson (UK) made example, but ribbon and box are new (maybe 70's + ?). J.W. Benson was the main early producer of (all/some types ?) Thai wearable medals. I've seen only 3 Benson made 2nd types of OWE, plus perhaps this one. I've not seen any confirmed Benson made 2nd type of OC (but have couple which could be quite old). As I understood, Benson was bombed in WW2 and stopped medal production then. Not sure if they stopped Thai medal production before then, or how much they were making the 2nd type. I have some both OWE and OC recovered from the Zimmerman fire of both types, so early type was still available later (WW2 bombed in Germany and put out of business, so confirmed date). There were other manufactures in Europe, however perhaps very low mintage. Thai's and most foreigners would not have changed the type they already had when the regulations were changed. And it may be that the old one was used until manufacturer stocks depleted, however long that might be (currently Thai government production doesn't meet demand, so there are no excess stocks except with third-party manufacturers who regularly carry stock, but who knows back then). The Thai government didn't make them originally, and Thai's would probably not be fussy about that. It might also be that the design was changed on paper, but the makers still made the old style ? Makers may not have made new dies until later ? Also, Thai government requires the return of a previous grade when increasing the grade - not sure how long that regulation has been there. The returned one is cleaned, and reissued (with new box and ribbon). Perhaps they reissued the old version for some time back then, if that practice was applicable ? So even if the design changed, there may be long overlap period until the old type was effectively phased out ? A lot of speculation - an interesting area for research. For comparison with the award certificates, from what I have seen, the old style certificate showing the old design medal was used up thru 1941, which the new style certificate showing the new design medal was used starting in 1942. Rgds Dave 1941 Certificate with old style medal picture 1942 Certificate with new style medal picture This is manufacturer difference. Check the reverse for potential date hallmark (last two digits in Thai B.E.)

Hello Jovan You can find them from time to time.

Hi Jovanmara Here is a pic for a first class (in real gold) And female version

Caz Some updates to the medals information: (upper left to lower right) photo 1 - Red cross 3rd class, Chakrabarti Mala (15 years service) (with ribbon of Chakra Mala Medal (25 yrs service)), order of the white elephant 7th class, Rama VII coronation medal, 100 yrs Bangkok commemorative medal, Korea service medal, Rama VI coronation, Red cross 2nd class (1st class with clear red enamel cross and usually in gold) (Issued red cross medals will be attributed with name on the reverse and the year of attribution would also be given, in Thai year B.E.) photo 2 - Order of the White elephant 5th class & Order of The Crown 5th Class (correct ribbon but worn (yes German style mount so presumably belonged to a German?), King Rama VII coronation Medal (on ribbon of Rama V reign as long as 2x Rama IV), Bangkok 100 yrs commemorative medal (with rare ribbon of WW 1 service), Rama IX coronation medal, 2 x Border service medals, East Asian Victory medal (WW2 front) photo 3 - order of the white elephant, Grand Cordon Star (current version –date can usually be found on the reverse hallmark, or perhaps if not stamped on the reverse then under the backplate which may usually be unscrewable but of course be careful – will be 2 digits of Thai year B.E. in Thai numerals) photo 4 - Commemorative Medal of the Royal State Visits to the United States of America and Europe o H.M. King Bhumibol Adulyadej Rgds Dave Caz Other hallmarks you might find: Order of the White Elephant current model may show the maker name and year of manufacture. (both 5th class and 7th class, but 7th class less often) Order of Crown, previous model, may show the maker name Chakabarti Mala may show the maker name and year of manufacture The commemorative medals I never saw hallmarks on. Rgds Dave

Hi Caz 51 is 2551 - 543 = 2008 /2 is one of the Thai Mint marks. Now most of the medals are made there. Rgds Dave

Hi EdMc This stamping give the maker and year of manufacture. The maker company name is เส่งหลี (Seng Lee). The year of manufacture is ๒๙ or 29 = (25)29 B.E., which equals 2529-543 = 1986 A.D. (See the Thai numbering system here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_numerals) Rgds Dave

Seems that this was just a query to get a good ebay listing price... http://www.ebay.com/itm/THAILAND-SO-REAR-EMPTY-MEDAL-BOX-FOR-WHITE-ELEPHANT-CLASS-I-OR-II-/262940740033?hash=item3d387d49c1:g:94gAAOSwSlBYv9tU THAILAND, ประเทศไทย SO REAR "EMPTY MEDAL BOX FOR WHITE ELEPHANT CLASS I OR II _ eBay.pdf

Hi obi007, This appears to be a medal box for a Class 1 or 2 Order of the While Elephant ? It is from the third party manufacturer, Arbhon Sbhakara, which is perhaps the first local manufacturer/reseller. I don't know the age, but it appears quite faded. It is missing the top tray which rests on the side boards. The sash space is below the tray, with the badge and star on the top tray. Here is a complete example for comparison (Order of the Crown, in Blue - I don't have any Order of the White Elephant photos of a box in this class handy). Rgds Dave

Hi davidck This one looks ok. The other two that they have listed as genuine however are not... listed as " official type, extensively cleaned " but actually is Laslo Repro Type 1 https://www.emedals.com/a-rare-first-war-thai-victory-medal-1917-1918 listed as" official type " but actually is Laslo Repro Type 2 (aka Blass copy) https://www.emedals.com/a-rare-first-war-thailand-victory-medal-w2226 Rgds Dave

Paul, Thailand uses Buddhist Era (BE), which is mostly 543 years later than the Christian/Common Era (AD). Usually only the latter two digits of the dates are used for medal hallmarks, although I've seen a couple medals with the full four digits. For earlier medals mainly from Rama V era, the Rattanakosin Era (RE or RS) of three digits is sometimes used, with year 1 starting 1782. There is a short description here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_solar_calendar Thai numbers can also be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_numerals Rgds Dave

Hi Caz This is ก.ษ. (abbreviation for กองกระษาปณ์) = the Thai Mint, followed by the date stamp 33 overstamped with 34. (33 = 2533 = 1990, 34 = 2534 = 1991) Often sets from this time are stamped on both the breast star and the sash badge. Plus the star perhaps looks a little older in the picture. Perhaps the star was made earlier ? Sometimes there can be nameplates, hallmarks, or scratchings inside the star. If you press on the backplace and twist off counter-clockwise, you can remove it easily (if it was not glued in the screw). Don't twist the front off, as it is wire-tied in place. See dissassembled example (sorry, don't have handy one with internal marking just right now). Rama VI was King from 1911 to 1925 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajiravudh). This set would be from Rama IX period. Rgd RDave

Hi Caz, The first one (ประเสริฐศิลป์) is the medal manufacturer Prasatsin. The second one is a manufacturing date stamp ๐๘ (08) = 2508 (1965) The third one is ก.ษ. (abbreviation for กองกระษาปณ์) = the Thai Mint, followed by the date stamp 33 overstamped with 34. (33 = 2533 = 1990, 34 = 2534 = 1991) Rgds Dave

Hi Caz The first set is an official government issues set. I can’t read the hallmarks, but they may give the date of original production. Usually only the last two digits is given, along with the maker name. (You can find Thai numbers easily online.) From reading the writing on the medal, the second medal is for the 100 year anniversary of the Thai scouts, in Bangkok in 2554 BE (2011 AD; AD = BE - 543). I don’t know the background how it was used, but perhaps it is a less or unofficial medal ? (Translation: obverse: 100 million thanks / 100 years of Thai scouts reverse: Bangkok 2554) Rgd RDave

Hi cazack, Welcome to collecting Thai medals ! This particular medal was never made in a bronze class, so any bronze is a copy. Often one can often tell a copy by quality with a side by side comparison with a genuine example, but lacking that, then the quality should be as a mint strike like a coin. Hallmarks - the most common being "Monnaie de Paris" is also of course copied. Rama V medals are heavily copied, and most of what you find for Rama V medals inside and outside of Thailand will likely be copies. Non-Rama V medals are rarely copied.

Hi cazack, This second medal is a copy of the Rama V Rajaruchi Medal. Rgds

Hi davidck, This looks like a genuine one. But some others with this dealer don't: Laslo "repro" for collectors (read fake) described as genuine, but with an intermediate price : http://www.emedals.com/a-rare-first-war-thai-victory-medal-1917-1918 Other Rama V fake: http://www.emedals.com/a-thai-rama-v-royal-household-merit-medal-2nd-class-c-1900 Other major Canadian dealer items - This was sold as genuine, but was a Blass fake (Laslo Repro): http://www.medalsofwar.com/product/siam-wwi-victory-medal-type-1-official/ (went for $2500, but should be maybe $400 at most) Rgds

Oliver860 Take a look at: Numismatic Forgery by Charles Larson : https://www.amazon.com/Numismatic-Forgery-Charles-M-Larson/dp/0974237124/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1476730037&sr=8-1&keywords=numismatic+forgery However, detailed inspection compared with a known good piece is pretty good at detecting copies for officially struck medals such as most of these. A modern forger usually doesn't have full mint-quality dies and machines to duplicate this quality, However Chinese forging factories seem to be doing well on this. More difficult to detect are medals not made by a mint, of which many varieties exist, and orders. Ernst Blass is infamous for his forging efforts. And some areas are totally overcome by fakes - German 3rd Reich everything, Vietnam-era patches, and probably others. All the Interallied victory medals and bars are faked by Mike Shank as described elsewhere, and are often passed as genuine. Many of the others are copied individually elsewhere.

Hi. Speaking of this, a fake just listed on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/JR305-World-War-1-Victory-Medal-Siam-/201692847120?hash=item2ef5d49c10:g:wtMAAOSw8gVYA8w3 This is a Blass copy (Laslo referred to it as Repro 2). The seller responded: Thank you for the info., I see there are many types and thus it is up to the Buyer to know what they are bidding on as the details between the types can be very small to tell. I will be happy to answer any questions I can. Rgds RDave JR305-World War 1 Victory Medal-Siam.pdf