James Hoard

Emmanuel, Thanks for posting these but these are latter day fakes, completely made up. These decorations never came in an enammelled version and there never was a sash badge, only a breast star for all four classes/grades. There was a sash but no sash badge. Apart from the size of the breast star and the value of the diamonds, the class/grade was indicated by the how elaborate the crown was and also the number of droplets emenating from the crown. Because of the valuable stones very few examples survive as they were usually broken-up and the stones used in jewellery or sold. Fortunately, some examples of the highest class, the Nishan-i-Aghdas, survive because they were conferred on rulers. The Topkapi Museum in Istanbul has two fine sets. The description and details of the order, and the descriptions of the various classes and grades as follows: Nishan-i-Agdas (the Imperial Order of the Aqdas, or the Most Sacred Order) The reasons for the foundation of this order are many and varied. Firstly, craving for jewelled insignia by senior officials could not be easily satiated by the Decoration of the Imperial Portrait, an award limited to small numbers and jealously conferred by the Shah. Secondly, the bestowal of the Order of the Lion and Sun had increased to such a degree that its reputation had diminished significantly. Thirdly, the Shah had long been planning to visit the great European courts where he was expecting to receive the highest orders available from his hosts, indeed he had already received several high orders of chivalry. However, it was quite evident that he had nothing of equal standing to bestow on his brother monarchs, in return. Consequently, Nasir ud-din Shah founded this new order in three classes in 1287 AH (1870 AD). From the outset, the Shah to limit awards of the order, to those who performed meritorious actions of the highest importance, or were deserving of the highest esteem of their sovereign. The order came in three classes, Nishan-i-Agdas (or Most Sacred), Nishan-i-Qods (or Very Sacred), and Nishan-i-Moqaddas (or Sacred). The first class subdivided into two degrees. Nishan-i-Agdas (Most Sacred), or first class. First degree: limited to the Shah and conferred only on important foreign sovereigns. The insignia consists of a large twelve-rayed star in silver with single straight rays, with small, plain rays in-between, surrounded by small five-pointed stars with a single diamond in the middle. In the centre, a round silver disk bearing lion rampant facing left, carrying an unsheathed sabre, and standing on a desert ground. The background illuminated by a sun in splendour rising above the horizon beyond, a small Qajar crown, above, all fully enamelled in natural colours. The round disk garlanded by three circlets of diamonds, each increasing in size outwards. The uppermost ray has an elaborate Qajar crown with five “battlements”, a large aigrette emanating from the middle with single diamonds drooping from each arm. The diameter between the furthest points of the star is 12.5 cm and the height, including crown and aigrette is 18.5 cm. The whole of the insignia fully encrusted with diamonds. The decoration worn pinned to the left breast, in preference to all other orders and decorations. The grand cordon is plain sky blue moiré. Second degree: limited to the senior princes of the Imperial family, great ministers of state of the highest rank and service, and Governors General of major provinces. Those functionaries who supervised Governors General of major provinces could also receive the decoration, provided they had enjoyed the office of great minister of state. Foreign Heirs Apparent and great ministers of state, who were especially deserving of recognition by the Shah, were also eligible for the decoration. The insignia of the second degree is almost identical to the insignia for the first degree, but encrusted with slightly less elaborate and smaller stones. The grand cordon is green moiré with narrow blue stripes along each border. Persian members of the order were styled Sardar-i-Aqdas. Nishan-i-Qods (Very Sacred), or second class. Conferred on distinguished servants of the state, who had rendered exceptional service in functions equal to those of great minister of state, minister plenipotentiary, or great commander of the army. The insignia is similar to the Agdas but smaller. The uppermost ray has a less elaborate Qajar crown atop, together with six small “battlements”, and a simple aigrette of three arms without drooping diamonds. The whole of the insignia encrusted with diamonds. The diameter between the furthest points of the star is 12.0 cm and the height, including crown and aigrette is 17.0 cm. The decoration was pinned to the left breast. The grand cordon is green moiré with narrow red stripes along each border. Persian members of the order were styled Sardar-i-Quds. Nishan-i-Moqaddas (Sacred), or third class: Conferred on distinguished servants of the state, who had rendered exceptional service in functions junior to those of great minister of state, or to those of the rank of minister resident, Major General, or Governor of a province. The insignia is similar to the Agdas but smaller. The uppermost ray has a simple Qajar crown atop together with six “battlements” only, without aigrette. The whole of the insignia encrusted with diamonds. The diameter between the furthest points of the star is 10.2 cm and the height, including crown is 13.3 cm. The decoration was pinned to the left breast. The grand cordon is red moiré with narrow green stripes along each border. Persian members of the order were styled Sardar-i-Moqaddas. Cheers, James

Nick, The different colours for different grades/classes/ranks were only awarded with the insignia for Persian nationals. While it may be true that most of the decorations that we see in the West come with a green ribbon, I cannot answer the question why. All I can say is that I have seen so many different types and shades of green that, one can only assume that the dealers have seen the word "green" in a refernce book and so that is what they use. The fourth class (even for foreigners) is supposed to be worn from a pin, not a ribbon. But I bet all of those out there with the dealers' have a green ribbon. I have copies of the firmans for two of the reorganisations of the Lion and Sun and the institution and then reorganisation of the Nishan-i-Agdas. These would, I suppose, in a European context pass as "statutes" of orders but are actually very different. Quite confusing to read, with bits and pieces of text mixed up. Often, isssues written within the context of one decoration or class, but actually referring to another. Going into detail will require writing a book! Cheers, James

This is not actually the Order of the Lion and Sun but the Nishan-i-Moqaddas (Sacred), the third class of the Nishan-i-Agdas/the Imperial Order of the Agdas or the Most Sacred Order. This class went to those who had rendered exceptional service in functions junior to those of great minister of state, or to those of the rank of Minister Resident, Major General, or Governor of a province. Confusingly, the first class was also called Nishan-i-Agdas (Most Sacred) and came in two degrees. The first degree was worn by the Shah, and also conferred on fellow foreign sovereigns. The second degree went to senior Persian princes, foreign heirs apparent, those who had performed very distinguished service while holding high ministerial office or served as governors-general of major provinces. The second class was called Nishan-i-Qods (Very Sacred). Conferred on distinguished servants of the state, who had rendered exceptional service in functions equal to those of great minister of state, minister plenipotentiary, or great commander of the army. The insignia were originally almost entirely covered in diamonds, though at the end of the Qajar regime I suppose they were paste. Cheers James

Indeed, Michael is right. The awards to foreigners were different. Esseantially a simplified version of the order, reduced to roughly the same number of classes as standard European orders so as to facilitate the exchanges of orders so that like classes could be exchanged for like. A European recipient who would, according to his rank and service, generally recieve a Grand Cross if being rewarded by his own country, received the First Class from the Persian government for services rendered to Persia. The order, as awarded to Persian nationals, once came in eight classes, each with further divisions within the eight. The Eighth class, for example, came with four divisions. The seventh class had five, and so on up the ladder. Although these eight were reduced to a more manageable five in the reorganisation of 1872, and the differences between awards to foreigners and Persian subjects less pronounced, differences still remained. There continued to be different divisions for Persians depending on whether they were for military, civil or religious services and the rank of the recipient. Not only did a Persian military recipient receive a standing lion with sword, his ribbon was a different colour and/or colour combination depending on rank. For example: - dark blue in the centre with green borders (vasat abi-e sir-tar va astraf sabz) for those of the rank of military commander-in-chief or General commanding an army corps, or equivalent; - red in the centre with green borders (vasat qermez atraf sabz) for Major Generals, or equivalent; - red in the centre with white borders (vasat qermez atraf sefid) for Brigadier-Generals, or equivalent rank; - red (qermez) for Brigadiers, or those of equivalent rank; - white (safid) for Colonels, or equivalent rank. If one was the sovereign, the ribbon was sky blue. The Prime Minister and those holding the highest court rank, green. A Minister Plenipotentiary or one of equivalent rank, cobalt blue. A cleric, red. Etc, etc, etc. The order was awarded in huge numbers. Not only that, as one progressed up the ladder, one simply added the new class or grade to one's breast. So by the time one ended up, say, as Prime Minister, one's breast could be festooned with eight or so stars plus badges of the self same order. One can go on in more and more detail, but all this is rarely known or comprehended in the West, where people have hardly heard of them. Cheers, James

I think the collar may be reserved for Heads of State. See this article on the Kim II of North Korea, who received it from Sihanouk in 2004. http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t14075.html Cheers, James

Dave, I am aware of that reference but I have so far failed to find any actual regulations to back it up, so was wondering if you had actually seen the regulations yourself. The cruder version, if a gilt breast badge worn from a medal red ribbon with three blue edge stripes, then that is the National Medal of Independence which was instituted in 1995. Thus not a lower class at all. I cannot put my finger on the booklet references at the moment but they date from the period 1964-1968. The first version, if I remember correctly, was issued in celebration of the 10th anniversay of independence. Cheers, James

Are you certain there were any regulations which indicated a Grand Cross and other classes? I have not seen such a regulation myself. I have seen official booklets on the Royal Orders of the pre-Lon Nol period and only the collar is mentioned. Cheers, James

Alas, these Bunyoro modern constructions are all a result of and largely organised by the usual US gong-hunting mafia. You can see their handywork elsewhere with their inventions for the exiled King of Rwanda and others. Invariably, most of the appointments go to these same North American fancy-dress wearers, who also seem to bag most of the positions of officers of the orders. Many is the instance where these officers use their positions to sell membership to their unsuspecting fellow social-climbing compatriots, too foolish to know what to do with their money. There never was an order of coronet wearers "acknowledged by the British Empire twice, in 1933 and 1955". What there was, was a rank of high chiefs or a chiefly class of counsellors to the ruler of Bunyoro-Kitara (Mukama). They were given a special coronet (Kondo) as a symbol of office and these offices could be made hereditary, if the Mukama so wished. They formed an order or class of society in the same way as the peerage or baronetage could be termed an order of society. Though the a better analogy would actually be "Privy Counsellors". There were no medals, badges, stars, sashes, ribbons, collars or anything else even remotely resembling a decoration or order of chivalry or merit. Comparing this American invention to the Danish Order of the Elephant wil make poor Queen Margrethe weep! This is of course, quite different from the Order of the Shield and Spears of the neighbouring kingdom Buganda and the Order of the Crown, Lion and Shield of the kingdom of Toro.Both mentioned by JDM. These two orders were indeed legitimate orders of chivalry or merit. Cheers, James

Komtur, Your insignia is definitely an early 20th century example, despite the issue over the number. The type of crown used (Imperial) and the low number confirm it. When it comes to the numbering, while it is perfectly reasonable to assume that returns were re-issued I sometimes wonder if it is in the interest of dealers to cast doubt about them. It certainly makes it much easier to attach any old badge to an individual's decorations if it happens to be missing, and then command a higher price for the lot. Cheers, James

For those interested in the orders and decorations of the Commonwealth, the British Monarchy website has put up an interesting "micro section" with images of those held by H.M. The Queen, either as soveregn of various orders concerned or received by her from other Commonwealth heads of state. Please follow the link to http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/microsites/queenandcommonwealth/MicroSection.asp?themeid=946 While the Canadian, Australian, and New Zealand awards are familiar, I have not seen images of several of the other orders before. The two Maltese decorations in particular - Xirka Gieh ir-Repubblika and the National Order of Merit; the Nishan-i-Ghazi of the Maldives; the Dominica Award of Honour; the Order of the Solomon Islands, etc. Enjoy Cheers James

Komtur, Here's the text from the emedals website. I hope he does not mind me cutting and posting here, but since you cannot access the page on-line perhaps he will not mind too much. " British Awards for Gallantry The Awards of Colonel Waller, C.V.O., O.B.E. A fine C.V.O., O.B.E. group of eight awarded to Colonel Stanier Waller, Royal Engineers, Honorary Equerry to H.R.H. The Duchess of Albany The Royal Victorian Order, C.V.O., Commander’s neck badge, silver-gilt and enamel, reverse officially numbered ‘C41’; The Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, O.B.E. (Civil) Officer’s 1st type breast badge, silver-gilt, hallmarks for London 1917; Egypt and Sudan 1882-89, dated reverse, 1 clasp, Tel-el-Kebir (Capt. S. Waller, R.E.); Jubilee 1887, clasp, 1897, silver; Coronation 1902, silver; Coronation 1911, silver, these unnamed; Ottoman Empire, Order of Medjidie, 4th Class breast badge, silver, silver-gilt, gold and enamel, stamp marks on reverse; Khedive’s Star 1882, unnamed, generally good very fine. Footnote: C.V.O. London Gazette 16 February 1904. ‘Colonel Stanier Waller, late Royal Engineers, Honorary Equerry to Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Albany.’ O.B.E. London Gazette 7 June 1918. ‘Colonel Stanier Waller, C.V.O., County Director, Auxiliary Hospitals and V.A.D.s, Oxfordshire.’ Order of the Medjidie London Gazette 4th Class 17 November 1882. ‘... in recognition of their distinguished services before the enemy during the late campaign in Egypt.’ Stanier Waller was appointed a Lieutenant in the Royal Engineers on 9 December 1864. Promoted to Captain in February 1878. Served in the Egyptian War of 1882 as Aide de Camp to Brigadier-General Nugent, Commanding Royal Engineers. He was present at the battle of Tel-el-Kebir, for which he was mentioned in despatches, received the brevet of Major (November 1882), was awarded the Order of Medjidie 4th Class and received the Queen’s medal and Khedive’s star. Waller was promoted to Major in December 1884, to Lieutenant-Colonel in December 1891 and to Colonel in July 1897. Later, for service as Honorary Equerry to the Duchess of Albany, he was awarded the C.V.O. For his wartime work as County Director of the Auxiliary Hospitals and Voluntary Aid Detachments of Oxfordshire, he was awarded the O.B.E. With copied gazette extracts and other research. Princess Helena of Waldeck & Pyrmont married Prince Leopold, Duke of Albany, the youngest son of of Queen Victoria in 1882. Two years later the Duke, who suffered from haemophilia, died in an accident. The widowed Duchess died in 1922." http://www.emedals.ca/catalog.asp?item=BAG273 Looks like your CVO did not belong to Waller after all. Cheers, James

Michael, Was it old, was it modern, approximate date? You see the problem. Without much detail we have got much to go on except "annecdote". " "I danced with a girl, who danced with a man, who danced with a girl, who danced with the Prince of Wales".

Michael, Very interesting indeed. Which was the last numbered Royal Victorian Order to a foreigner you saw? What was his name and what was the number? Cheers, James

So you are saying that in the dicussion you had at the OMRS you were told that a badge issued with an Imperial Crown in the reign of Edward VII, as in this case, was reissued in the reign of Elizabeth II when the insignia called for a Queen's Crown? Or, perhaps we should not put too much trust in hearsay?

Komtur, The 134th appointment on the list of Commanders of the Royal Victorian Order was Colonel Stanier Waller, CVO, OBE, and officer of the Corps of Royal Engineers. His date of appointment being 10.2.1904. This fits with the Imperial Crown that you see. Cheers, James

Sal, One cannot be completely sure but I could imagine a scenario whereby there were no takers for a breast star on its own. The first question most potential buyers would have was where's the neck badge? By marrying the odd breat star with a CVO badge, the dealer not only disposes of his breast star but gets a higher price for it. A KCVO set usually goes for more than three times as much as the commanding price for a CVO. On the other hand, if it had been a neck badge on its own, the badge could always be sold off on its own as a CVO. Most buyers would assume that it really was a CVO and would not automatically be looking for a missing star. The number for a CVO neck badge could well be correct and a "modern" looking engraving seems to fit with the number of awards dating to around 1973. Cheers, James

If it is true that honorary awards to foreigners are not numbered, then there would seem to be a bit of a problem for a KCVO with the number 1295. In the days before the London Gazette was placed online, I compiled a full list of awards for all grades of the order. As of the close of 2005 only 1161 appointments of substantive KCVOs had been made. However, the 1295th person to be appointed CVO was Brigadier-General Percy Stewart Cooper, CVO,OBE, CD (of Canada). His date of appointment being 3.8.1973. Consequently, I suspect a marriage of a CVO badge with a spare older KCVO breast star, which may have lost its orginal partner-of-the-neck somewhere along the line. As for the MVO 4th class, number 373 on my list is The Rt Hon Reginald (Walsh), 5th Lord Ormathwaite. His date of appointment is 24.4.1906. He was a member of HM's Consular Service and never progressed beyond MVO. Cheers, James Hoard

Bazsi, The Bath and British Empire ribbons appear to be longer than those for the campaign ribbons. Are my eyes misleading me or is that correct? If so, I cannot imagine that an OBE or MBE would be represented by a ribbon wider than the campaign medal ribbons. Thus, your man is likely to be a CB, CBE. The higher combinations including KCB and GCB can be forgotten. Although a KCB is relatively common in the rank of Major-General for the Great War, I doubt more than two or three were awarded during WWII (at most). The only one's I recall were in intelligence, not frontline soldiers. Hope this narrows down your search. Cheers, James

Well, I searched the Moroccan state "Bulletin Officiel", which is available online and this is all I can find: Dahir n° 1-79-188 du 18 hija 1399 (9 novembre 1979) portant création de la médaille commémorative de la campagne du Zaïre. En vigueur(1) BO n° 3501 du 15 moharrem 1400 (5 décembre 1979) p 888 .Dahir n° 1-79-188 du 18 hija 1399 (9 novembre 1979) portant création de la médaille commémorative de la campagne du Zaïre (1). LOUANGE A DIEU SEUL ! (Grand Sceau de Sa Majesté Hassan II) Que l'on sache par les présentes - puisse Dieu en élever et en fortifier la teneur ! Que Notre Majesté Chérifienne, Vu le décret royal n° 199-66 du 1er ramadan 1386 (14 décembre 1966) portant création des ordres du Royaume, tel qu'il a été modifié et complété et notamment ses articles 1 et 2, A DECIDE CE QUI SUIT : Article premier - Il est créé, en commémoration de la compagne du Zaïre, une médaille dite 'Médaille commémorative de la compagne du Zaïre', destinée à récompenser les militaires et assimilés qui ont participé à cette campagne. Art : 2 - Il est frappé, en outre, en quarante exemplaires, une plaque de 10 centimètres de diamètre sans bélière, présentant la même composition que celle de la médaille. Art : 3 - La Médaille commémorative de la campagne du Zaïre comprend une classe unique. Elle est en bronze doré, d'un diamètre de 40 millimètres et comporte une bélière en forme de trapèze inversé. Art : 4 - La médaille commémorative de la compagne du Zaïre comporte : - A l'avers : A droite, dans sa partie supérieure, l'ensemble des Forces armées royales avec en dessous, le millésime 1977, sur le pourtour l'inscription 'Paris-Marrakech-Kinshassa' et dans la partie inférieure, un groupe de trois palmiers. En son centre figure le minaret de la Mosquée Koutoubia de Marrakech, avec , en surimpression, un cheval bondissant monté par un cavalier marocain brandissant un fusil. A gauche, un grand croissant enveloppe dans sa partie supérieure l'inscription 'HASSAN II' et dans sa partie inférieure un soleil levant derrière un palmier surplombant les murailles du palais royal de Marrakech. - Au revers : Un grand croissant enveloppe dans sa partie droite le millésime 1397 et la calligraphie en arabe de l'extrait du discours prononcé par Notre Majesté à l'occasion de la compagne du Zaïre : 'Tout peuple qui se respecte doit s'empresser de secourir son voisin en cas de légitime défense. HASSAN II'. A la partie supérieure figure l'inscription 'Gibraltar' avec, en dessous, les armoiries royales et un soldat marocain armé. La carte de L'Afrique avec la délimitation du Zaïre et l'inscription 'Marrakech-Zaïre' occupe son centre. A gauche, ressortent l'emblème des Forces armées royales et, sur le pourtour, les inscriptions 'Maroc-Rabat' à la partie supérieure et 'Valeur-Ardeur-Ferveur' à la partie inférieure. Art : 5 - La médaille commémorative de la campagne du Zaïre se porte sur le côté gauche de la poitrine, attachée à un ruban de 7 millimètres de largeur aux couleurs nationales marocaines et zaïroises. Art : 6 - La médaille commémorative de la compagne du Zaïre est décernée par décision de Notre Majesté, publiée au Bulletin officiel du Royaume dans les conditions prévues à l'article 49 du décret royal n° 199-66 du 1er ramadan 1386 (14 décembre 1966) susvisé. Elle peut être attribuée à titre posthume dans les conditions prévues à l'article 60 du décret royal n° 199-66 du 1er ramadan 1386 (14 décembre 1966) précité. Art : 7 - La Médaille commémorative de la compagne du Zaïre n'est portée qu'en tenue militaire, à la suite éventuellement des ordres nationaux et des autres ordres et médailles crées antérieurement au titre de la défense nationale. Art : 8 - Il est fait mention au livret matricule des titulaires de l'attribution de la médaille commémorative de la campagne du Zaïre. Art : 9 - Les titulaires de cette médaille sont dispensés de tous droits de chancellerie. Art : 10 - Les titulaires de la médaille commémorative de la campagne du Zaïre sont soumis aux règles disciplinaires prévues au chapitre IV du décret royal n° 199-66 du 1er ramadan 1386 (14 décembre 1966) précité. Art : 11 - Le présent dahir sera publié au Bulletin officiel. Fait à Rabat, le 18 hija 1399 (9 novembre 1979). Pour contreseing : Le Premier ministre, MAATI BOUABID.

Oops, I don't know what happened to the rest of my earlier posting. The English translation and my comments have vanished. What I had intended to add was that rather than the Order of the Lion, the old Congo Free State "L'Étoile de Service", instituted on 16th January 1889, seems to be a better model. Not only did the latter decoration use the motto "travail et Progrès" highlighted by Jérôme, but the shape of the star is similar (though unenamelled) and the ribbon is blue (though plain light blue). I am not sure that the star is similar to the Moroccan Alouite star. Even if it was, that does not rule out a Congolese decoration. It may have been and intentional compliment if the decoration was meant for the Moroccan contingent. Cheers, James

It seems this decorations was discussed on the French forum "Zitocland" from which I take the liberty to quote as follows: " Sujet: Re: Agrafe Défense Nationale Lun 16 Mai - 20:26 Bonsoir à tous ! Sans vouloir contredire N de Rouffignac sur "l'ordre de la Vaillance ", mais j'ai de grands doutes sur le fait que ce soit un ordre du Congo Brazzaville. En effet "travail et Progrès" n'a jamais été la devise du Congo Brazzaville (c'est en fait Unité, travail, progrès) mais en revanche celui du Congo Belge ("Vérité et justice" que l'on retrouve au revers de l'ordre du lion Africain du Congo Belge) . 3 autres points troublants : - l'étonnante ressamblance avec le Ouissam Alouite pour l'étoile blanche et son étrier particulier. - la Colombe figurant au centre, quel rapport avec la vaillance ? - la couleur bleu du ruban, utilisée en général pour les médailles de la RDC - (voir ordre du Léopard), la couleur verte faisant la différence avec l'autre Congo traditionnelllement. En voici deux de ma collection, la deuxième n'a pas d'agrafe et je ne pas sûr qu'elle en ai jamais porté. Je n'ai jamais vu non plus d'autre "classe" que celle-ci, bizarre pour un ordre. Quelqu'un en aurait-il à nous montrer ? Pour ma part je pense plus à une étoile remise au contingent marocain de l'ONU (3200 hommes) que dirigeait le général Kettani (formé à St Cyr, il organisa la garde prétorienne de Mobutu les "paracommandos" congolais).... Peut-être quelqu'un sur lle forum en sait-il plus ? Amicalement Jérôme" TRANSLATION: "Good evening everyone!

I don't know why they don't simply extend the "Royal Red Cross" for exceptional service, both civil and military, for medical personnel generally. Awards are so few in the purely medical military nursing field these days. Cheers, James

Not quite at the end of his career. He was prom to the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel 1/4/1881 and commanded the Bangkalan Barisan Corps for another 20 years!. He eventually retired with the rank of Honorary Colonel 20/8/1901. This photo appears to date from before the Lombok Pacification campaign of 1894, because for that service he was made an Officer of the Order of Orange-Nassau. Cheers, James

This is sounding even more interesting. The mere fact that he was a title holder neither entitles him to a special passport, an extra page or diplomatic priviledges. One sincerely hope that no "extended lines of credit" were garanted him! Cheers, James

As far as I know, appointments to the Thistle are not made from any list. The order is in the personal gift of the sovereign, so unless one can read HM's mind it is hard to see how one could ever expect to be "next". This is all very interesting because the Scottish earldom is held by the Duke of Rothesay, HM's eldest son, who has held the Thistle for yonks. There is an Irish Earldom of the same name, but that is held by the 11th holder of the title, not 14th - The Rt Hon Arion Thomas Piers Hamilton (Butler), 11th Earl of Carrick, born on 1 September 1975. Far too young to receive the Thistle or to have done much to deserve it quite yet. Cheers, James Hoard