Les

I've been looking through some old auction catalogues and noticed that some groupings bought/sold in the past have sometimes turned up on the market again, with the addition of new items that weren't in the group previously. I've also come across the opposite situation where a grouping has been split up and parts sold off to different buyers, sometimes with the seller not saying anything about the group being split up, or even if it happened to him. With small groupings, this may have far more than we might want to know or think about. Keeping tabs on what happens to lesser mortals may be all but impossible. However....what about keeping tabs on some of the major groupins that have grown or shrunken over time? Anyone have examples they can document? It might be worthwhile starting this as a thread that can be updated in the future. Maybe...maybe starting to keep records on some of the more important groupings over time might give some of the "marriage brokers" out there pause to think before adding items to small groups in the hopes of jacking prices up, cleaning out closets, and putting the skids to stories of "General Bader's trunks" item/part 1297.... inlcuding the RZM "SS" camo undies once offered by someone who had other items said to have "belonged" to "General Bader." ;-) Les

Rule #1: don't do anything to an item that can or will harm it in the long run; if it can't be reversed or undone then you might not want to do anything you might think is "helping" to improve it's condition. For example, some people like shiny medals and metal items. Removing the surface finish from items may in fact be far more harmful than people realize. Often, protective finishes are applied to items when they were newly made, to prevent or control rust, or oxidization. Over cleaning or polishing may remove that protective layer, and the item may start to rust or corrode in an unpredictable manner. A browned metal surface on iron or steel item that has occurred naturally over time, the result of chemical reactions that have formed what may be a protective layer over the underlying iron or steel. If you see -red- rust, remove it or stabilize the rust so it doesn't keep rusting. If it's brown or black rust, the chemical "rusting" or "oxidization" is relatively harmless if left alone. Removing brown or black rust on swords, gun barrels, or even helmets may not be the thing to do. If you remove the browned or blackened finish, you can't put it back, and by handling the item, fingerprints leave marks that can cause rust, bare metal can pick up moisture and start rusting, etc. This is an example of "leave it alone" because you may do more harm than good. Oh yes....and as an aside. Buy several pairs of cheap cotton gloves for when you handle your collection, even if it's only a few pieces. If you don't want to buy gloves, keep a few cotton handkerciefs around for handling items. This helps prevent body oils and moisture which can lead to rust, tarnishing, dirt/grundge buildup, etc. A simple thing....thinking ahead a little bit, and trying to prevent problems from forming is much simpler and cheaper than having to fix a problem -we've- created. Les Rule #2: don't forget rule number 1.

There are a few ways to prevent moths from becoming a problem with a collection what has woolen items. Moth or insect larvae may be on an item when you acquire it, so a period of keeping it seperate from the rest of the collection is advisable. Put the item in a clear plastic bag with something to kill hatching insects, and the bag inside another container for several months. Some moths and insects hatch after a warm frost cycle. They can be tricked into hatching by putting the item into a freezer overnight, and then taking it out the next day and letting it warm up. Doing this several days in a row ought to fool the moth/insect eggs into hatching. Keep the item seperate from the rest of the collection until moth season is safely behing. Hand dry cleaning is sometimes an option, although this may not be practical depending on the materials and colors of cloth items. More on this option in another thread. Cleaning or light brushing can remove some of the dirt, old stains (food, organic matter) that insect thrive on, consequently with heavily soiled items, cleaning may be a consideration. Instead of mothballs, try using cedar. Chips or shavings can placed in a loosely woven bag or wrapped in folded cloth. Cedar odors are far more tolerable to human (and pet) noses than moth balls, which often use naptha as a moth repellant. Old fashioned cedar chests can be bought at second hand stores, etc. Used cedar chests are not expensive, and are good for storage away from light, etc. If you don't have the space, cedar chips in closets or even cedar paneling is an option. There are ultra-sound devices that are available in some stores, and on-line. You simply plut these into an electical outlet, and they produce sound that is not audible to humans or pets. The sound frequencies are in the range that mess with insects, spiders (not a insect), various other bugs, and even mice. It annoys them and drives them out of the room the ultra-sound device is in. I've found that a isolation (and possibly cleaning) period prevents bugs from contaminating the rest of the collection is a start on preventing a problem from developing. The use of cedar chips in boxes, containers, and so on, in combination with the ultra-sound devices really seems to work and I've been using these two together upwards of 7 or 8 years now. Les

Jan, I hear many collectors say they would not want a fake in their collection. It can happen when we don't know items outside of our area of interest. I bought what I thought was a TR LW Fj badge for a relative, and now know it's not a real one. Dump it? No. Throw it away? No. Fakes serve as a learning tool, and what we do with them once we know we bought or have something bad in our collection says something about us once we know the item isn't good. If I discover I have something fake in my collection, I'm not going to destroy it, or sell it to someone else. Instead I do something quite different. If people know you collect medals, badges, uniforms or whatever, you always run the risk of being robbed or having your house burgalized. Worse yet, you could be at home when it happens. Even if you don't have your good stuff at home, people tend to associate collecting medals, badges, and so on with people having money to invest in the items. You could get robbed while at home, because people are going to think if they don't find what you collect, they'll either find money, or something else....or if you're home, force you to get it for them. I leave fakes lying around the house, knowing that if someone breaks in, the good stuff won't be found and stolen. They'll take the fakes lying around and run before the police get there. Once they try to sell the bad stuff, and someone tells them the stuff is bad, they'll think that you don't know the difference and they'll never be tempted to come back. If they tell other thieves the same thing...good. It's a cheap add on to my insurance. Fakes -do- have a purpose, and if you think about it, they can also protect your collection and even more, and they might more useful than you think. Les

This ebay dealer really got his history a "little bit" wrong. I know...what else is new with ebay dealers? http://cgi.ebay.com/deluxe-08-THE-BLUE-MAX...1QQcmdZViewItem He's offering what he cals a "Schmuckheft" or special movie promotional book with all sorts of p.r. goodies in it. This one is for "The Blue Max" with George Peppard. Part way down the page, he states (sorry for the all caps, but this was cut and pasted and he had it in all caps): ADDITIONAL TO ALL THE "COMMON" SCHMUCKHEFT FEATURES, HERE YOU CAN FIND PICTURES OF THE TRUE LIFE WORLD WAR I HEROES MANFRED VON RICHTHOFEN ("DER ROTE BARON") AND THE BELGIAN THEO OSTERKAMP, WHO SHOT HIM DOWN, AS WELL AS LOTS OF GREAT DOGFIGHT IMAGES AND A PICTORIAL SPECIAL ON WW I DECORATIONS. Gotta love it. I guess he doesn't know that Osterkamp didn't shoot down Richtofen, nor was Theo Osterkamp a Belgian....otherwise the Kaiser would never have awarded him with the Pour le Merite. Fractured history...got to love it. java script:emoticon('', 'smid_22') Les

The usual practice for Prussian awards was to be (-presumed-) living when you were granted the award. Orders and higher level decorations given by various states might require review and permission by the monarch, or some pencil pusher at a desk. Prussian Iron Crosses could be handed out by Willy, or as far down the food chain as the regimental level. After WWI, it's not unknown for Iron Crosses to have been awarded by worker's councils, or even at the regimental or unit depot even as late as the middle 1920's. It's possible that someone who wasn't aware of the normal protocol of giving an award (for whatever reason) might give a man who was captured and thought to be alive, an Iron Cross (even if the fellow had died in captivity.....) for whatever he might have done at the time of, or leading to his being captured. If an award could be handed out years after the war was over, it's also possible that after the war a dead man (or a few more for that matter) could have been granted an award contrary to normal protocols. If giving posthomous awards was normal protocol, there would have been hundreds or thousands of such cases known. One or two...call it a possible fluke, and it it's a post-war awarding, I'm inclined to say it "doesn't count." I'm ready to see the document and supportive facts whenever you're ready. Les

"Corn willy" was an American nickname given to the hash or corned beef hash fed to troops. There are ways of making hash from scratch, or...straight out of a can served up hot, warm, or congealed/cold. I don't know the derivation of the nickname, although I do know it was applied to more than food at times. One of the hills in the Meuse-Argonne was called "Corn Willy" hill, possibly because they were expecting to be ground up into "hash" before the offensive there was over. The corned beef coming from the British or French sometimes got the nickname "monkey meat" or even worse.... Red dog? I'm not so certain of this one. It's not Red Dog beer brewed by Miller.... ;-) "Red dog" roads were around in rural areas, not all that long ago. A red dog road was a crushed rock or "metalled" road (English term), with stone being laid down on graded or scraped tracks or roads and then rolled with a roadway roller. Crushed stone roadways were necessary to keep roads and tracks from turning into muddy troughs following rainy weather, or in low lying poorly drained areas. Construction crews (or engineering units) would get the job of laying out, constructing, and with help from other units, maintaining road ways for the movement, of men, horses, vehicles, artillery, supplies of all sorts that were needed to keep things and the war moving along. Depending on the extent of the "red dog" laid down, the road may in fact be a macadmized road. Macadam is a type of road construction pioneered by the Scotsman John Loudon McAdam in the early 1800s. It consisted of creating three layers of stones laid on a sloped subgrade with side ditches for drainage. The first two layers consisted of angular hand-broken aggregate, maximum size 3 inches (75 mm), to a total depth of about 8 inches (200 mm). The third layer was about 2 inches (50 mm) thick with a maximum aggregate size of 1 inch (25 mm). The layers would be compacted with a heavy roller, causing the angular stones to lock together with their neighbours. Gravel, or macadamized roads can get a bit wearing on the feet after a while because the surface is hard, unyielding, ang the feet will slide a little. These roads are hard on shoes, and feet (which will get red and tender after a while, or give you "red dogs." "Corn willy" for the gut, and "red dog" for the feet ? Les

Thanks for the comparative photos. I see the difference(s) and understand your points. I'm inclined to agree with you, and after thinking about your comments and looking at the badge further don't think you're sticking your neck out on this one. The shape of the pin has a "foot" or projection to prevent the pin from being depressed too far. On the badge however, the look of the pin is betrayed by the lack of that function being workable. There's nothing for the foot or projection to come in contact with so the pin is able to pushed all the way down until it contacts the back of the badge. In some ways, it's like a having a wrongly sized door that doesn't match the door frame size and the door doesn't close the way the design was intended. Also, the pin/catch feature is far too loose. These "details" had me wondering if the badge was nothing more than a decent looking fake. I'd planned on giving this to my father's cousin, but now that it's not likely to be a real badge, I'm seriously thinking of finding one that is real. It seems flat out wrong to me, to give a vet, and a relative something that's not real. Les

..and one more. The file was a little too large to include with the previous post. You can clearly see the cone of excess material at the base of the hook. The hook is too large and high, and doesn't hold the pin in place very well. Does the pin look correct for a B&N L ? My impressions when I saw it was that the catch was probably repaired although I'm not saying it might not be a fake. One Lw/Fj collector that saw it thought the catch was a repair, and offered to trade a duplicate badge he had for this one. TR stuff is something that's outside my area, and something I might look at once or twice, but not with the intention of buying for my collection. Ok...good...or bad? Les

Here's one of the reverse, showing the base of the clasp. The hook isn't attached in the usual way. It might have been broken, and repaired? I don't know all that much about these.... Les

Most of my small stuff is in the process of being boxed up and stored. This is a "Verein" or veterans badge that looks as if it started out life as a clasp or pin on device and was converted to a stick pin. I found this prior to putting it with some other items, so the photo is off-the-cuff. The glare covers the word "Verein" and the rest of it is discernable. Les

...and the reverse...this one with pin attached. Les

My primary area of interest is Imperial German collecting, and for the most part, don't collect TR era items. I have -one- Fj/abzeichen in my collection. I bought it with an "ulterior" motive in mind. My father's first cousin was an Fj. He volunteered for the Lw in 1942, when he was 18. Kurt was jump-trained during the later part of 1942, and sent to France in 1943 and took part in trying to fend off the allied invasion of Normandy. He fought at St. Lo, survived the escape through the Falaise Gap, and was at Arnhem when -that- little dust up there took place. Late in October 44, he was wounded in the foot and hospitalized at Magdeburg, and then moved when the Russians were closing in on Berlin later in the war. He was still in hospital at the end of the war, and stuck in a French POW cage. He kept his Fj/abzeichen through six months of being in a French camp, and was released after being declared unfit to work. He still has his badge (and his EKII ribbon)...minus the pin on the back. He managed to keep the badge through numerous searches and items being seized or confiscated by breaking of the pin, and placing it between the butt-cheeks whenever an inspection or search seemed imminent. These days the badge is oxidized a bit, but I know where it's been, who owned it, and the family connection. I'm trying to work an open trade with my father's cousin. He's ammenable to passing it on, but doesn't seem inclined to part with something that obviously meant a great deal to him not only then, but now. Meanwhile, I'm planning on giving him this and hoping to get his in "due time." My only Fj badge, a "B & N".....the front: Les

Dan, no sign of collar disks were ever present. I had the same thought you did when I first got the tunic and looked very carefully. That doesn't mean they weren't there, only that there's no puckering inside the collar if the thread went all the way through the collar, or needle/thread scars on the outer surface of the collar. I know the difference between Eisenbahn (railway) and "train" (supply/intendance) units. The "hint" I tossed out about the guy spending more time paying attention to clocks and schedules was to get a mental response of "train" much along the same line as someone playing the game "charades" will use all sorts of mental images to get the word(s) out. I assumed that once the word "train" got tossed out that there would be some tag on how the word was used and a "correction." You're right, this guy could have run a black market supply of old chickens, re-cycled Belgian "mares" for artillery remounts, and items that fell off the back of a truck headed for a divisional officer's mess before it got there in return for who knows what. If he really did earn any medals, it was probably "quid pro quo" for favors rendered, bribes, or what he knew or had on a staff someone or other...? Les

Rick....yeppers, you win the Kewpie doll of your choice (if she'll go along with it) ! I didn't want to make it all too easy. java script:emoticon('', 'smid_7') Les

The colour of the strap is closer to medium blue, not pale blue. Here's a close up of the collar showing both the NCO tresse and a small strip of heavily worn and discolored Bavarian braid. The guy that wore this wasn't likely to be pulling a trigger, and certainly not a flier. If anything this guy kept a firm eye on clocks and...schedules. Whether those loops for a breast badge (EKI? Wound badge? Post war Freikorp? Collector add on?) are something he actually needed....I can't say and wouldn't bet the ranch on the loops being pre-1918. Les

By the way, I have -no- idea who the original owner of the tunic was. There's no visible name or markings inside the tunic, or the tunic pockets. Nada lada enchilada to go on for one of the many "invisible" NCOs. Les

Allright....enough suspense, bad photos and my commentary. Here's a decent shot of the tunic collar, and the shoulder strap(s). There should be a numeral on the straps. The holes for the prongs are present, and if there was a number, it would have been a "1", "2", or a "3." Ok...I know what it is. Chip, I'm disqualifying you (and Dan). No harm meant, but you know these things and I'd like someone else to wave their hand in front of the class. If no one responds in a day or so, then feel free to point out the details. The condition of this one is a little grubby but considering what it is, that it screams "been there" and it's grown on me over the years I've had it (and others). Enjoy it guys....I'll post other photos in the fall when I can unpack everything in a new location close to Bob H's federal witness protection programe hide-out.... java script:emoticon('', 'smid_20')

Here's the front of the tunic...notice the officer type pattern with the patch pockets, EKI loop on the breast pocket, and .....look closely at that collar and what you can barely see of the shoulder straps. The photo is intentionally a little blurry so the suspense can be kept up for one more photo....

Look closely at the underlayment on the shoulder strap of the photo above....notice the color? Ok...now here's the inside of the tunic, showing the maker label which is heavily worn, but can be read by holding the item on an angle to a light source and looking at the thread pattern. This guy bought an officer style tunic, although he was not an officer. The next photo will provide hefty clues...look closely at the tunic before proceeding to the next image.

Stogie commented about how not seeing many "private purchase" NCO tunics....here's another one from my collection that's going into storage during the "great moving project" coming up for me. I'll do this in the reverse order photos are usually shown, as teasers, and so that forum folk can see how quickly they can figure out some of the specifics of the tunic. Here's the back of the tunic first.... Les

Let's not confuse what seems logical with what people, governments, or businesses making medals actually do. Despite the logical idea that a firm (or customer) needing one, or at most a very small number of medals could save money by buying one from another firm....that doesn't always happen. Previtera's book "Prussian Blue" for example shows the PlM with oakleaves worn by the Austro-Hungarian Emperor, Franz Josef. The medal was -not- made by any known Prussian, German or other "Reich" jeweler. Instead it may have been made by an Austrian firm.... One would think that the Kaiser as head of the German Empire, King of Prussia, and head of the Order of the Ritter des P.l.M. would have sent his fellow Emperor a "German" made P.l.M. If "saving money" was is a goal, then why didn't Franz Josef order one from Godet or Wagner....instead of having one made from a jeweler who didn't mark the medal with his Ritzmark? Godet and Wagner could have saved money by buying various non-Prussian orders (for instance those made for Badeners, Bavarians or Saxons) instead of making some of them on their own. Despite the economics and idea of "saving money" companies do not always do what is logical. I do agree that there is evidence that some firms bought medals from other makers, and appear to have applied their own Ritzmarke. Friedlaender appears to have bought or acquired Wagner made PlMs and applied their own marking to the medal instead of making their own. Instead of trying to come up with clear cut and across the board statements, lets focus on what the known facts are. Until recently Rothe was in the same location in Vienna for over 150 years, and no one ever thought to ask the firm about their records, if old dies were kept, and document what the firm did (or can be shown not to have done). Too late now, because the firm has gone out of business and all of it's assets have been sold. Hammerle -is-still-in-business, and I've heard a rumor the firm has kept all of the dies they've had or used. Has anyone considered enquiring about doing research in the firms' records or archives? If there are orders for items from other firms, subcontracting, and so on, the records might have -facts- and not speculation on what a company did and what medals they actually made, catalogues, and so on. I've suggested this before, and I'll suggest this again. There are several forum members living in Germany that might want to consider stopping at the Hammerle firm in Munich and asking a few questions about what records they have, if the original dies are still kept by the firm, and so on. For those who are German, or speak fluent German, visiting the shop and talking to the owner(s) directly ought to eliminate phone charges, language problems, and the like. Speaking to people face to face can sometimes reveal some interesting information. Les

Dan, no name or markings. There are stitch marks were the makers label was removed, but nothing there to allow the tunic to be traced to whoever owned it. Chip, thanks for the oohs...and ahhs! I'm inclined to agree with your assessment of the approx time period the tunic was made, although there's the possibility the Borte could have been added if the man were promoted after he had the tunic made. The color of the material is a mixed light grey-green, with more green in it than grey. It's definitely not the light green color seen in some of the early m10 pre-war tunics. The photo looks more grey than it really is. Trying to date a tunic by color is risky, but after saying that, the color is not in the darker colors usually seen later in the war. Les

Dan, Nice Austrian helmet with the camo.... done....I -think- by a German, not an Austrian. The black finger-width band along the edge of the feld-grau paint is one feature usually seen on German camo patterns and in accordance with German regulations on camo patterns. Bear in mind, the Austrians were under no obligation at all to follow German paint/camo patterns....and didn't. Austrian colors and patterns are usually different from the types found on German camo helmets. The use of fieldgray and a black border suggests a German applied the paint, not an Austrian. I can't proove that is exactly what happened, but it comes from a sense of having handled, owned, and looking at photos over the years. There's not much in print on Austrian (and Hungarian) camo patterns, so this is primarily a "gut thing" from having handled and owned several over the years, and making comparisons to the German versions I've encountered. Rather than go into a long sermon on the differences between Austrians and Germans, the Austrians tended to use whatever they could get their hands on, and used it. That resulted in a wide-range of non-standard items, and variation from accepted "patterns." By the way, I like the blue/white cotton "pockets" on the helmet, and overall condition. It's a good representative piece. Les