Les

The case for the Turkish War Medal looks like an EK I case, and the case the EK I is in look like recent reproductions. (I can't smell the glue drying on the photo when I bring it up on the screen but there have been times when items from Latvia and elsewhere have been offered, for a moment there was glue in the air....). The photos are far too fuzzy to be certain of any details, but one item did catch my attention. Look closely at the case the "PlM" is in....someone got the some of the ballpark details right. It''s small (barely large enough to hold the medal), the open/close device is on the right hand side of the case, and the embossing style on the top cover is roughly what it should look like. That's not saying the case is "correct" but barring the one Andreas sold on ebay a month or two back, the "correct" case for a PlM/Johanniter, etc, are seldom seen being offered with a PlM, especially anywhere near ebay. Les

This one isn't wartime. Andreas S-I has looked at it in person and said it's a -real- 1920's piece. A inter-wars piece isn't wartime, but this is about as good as it gets for ebay. http://cgi.ebay.de/Godet-Pour-Le-Merite-PL...1QQcmdZViewItem Les

Paul, The Bavarian Army Museum at Ingoldstadt has the military records of most if not all who served in the Bavarian Army. If you send a nice letter enquiring about how you can get a record search done and an offer to pay for the cost of having the files checked, that might get the ball rolling. The "Prussians" will try to tell you their records were destroyed during a bombing raid during the war. The Bavarians aren't able to rely on any such story, so instead you have to contend with their bureaucratic system to get information...which if the guy served during the TR era can be difficult to get at times. The fact that he was a reserve officer doesn't make any difference, because as an officer who was part of the Bavarian Army, any files on him should be at Ingoldstadt. On the other hand, if you can coax one of our fellow forum members living in Germany to stop off there and ask if they could check Gerstering's file....? Les

Greg, Thanks for the feedback. I agree with your assessment. I have an unmarked Godet, and compared the EK about to Marshall's Godet w/hooks, and to unmarked one I have. It's been posted on the forum here before. After looking at the crown, and other details didn't think it was a Godet at all. In the closeup, the center part of the W is also much higher than on Godet cores. The side hook stubs or what's there suggests the hooks (1) have been gone a long time because the breakage has had enough wear to start smoothing out, (2) there's no discoloration from heat soldering, and there's no traces of solder or poor workmanship with the way they were joined to the back. Quite possibly the hooks were original to the piece, which raises the question...who dunnit? Les

Ok...in closer. Les

Greg, I went for higher resolution without going in too close. Need it much closer? Les

Presto, chango, obverso: Best guess on maker please? Les

Here's a double side hook EKI that doesn't appear to have been made by Godet. The prongs and pin are broken, so the price was low enough that buying it and then spending time rooting through the archives on a forum or two during cold winter nights was a way to learn about cores, makers, etc. I've got two makers in mind, but would like to toss this out there for some of you folks who almost good enough to identify these things by the brailled method. java script:emoticon('', 'smid_28') The backside first to get your attention: Les

George, Paul.... If the belts are like mine, the top surface is silk and wire, and the body-side layer cotton twill or something very much like it. Wet the cotton underside and it may shrink. Wet the silk, and it will buckle, warp, and probably tear/rip/break. Dirt goes all the way to the core of metallic thread and there's really no good way to attempt cleaning the flat strip part of the belt, let alone the tassles. Even if you got the flat part of the belt clean, the tassles could not be cleaned at home using "home methods." The mixture of three materials on the outside (silk, metallic thread/wire, and cotton) in combination are a potential nightmare to clean. Then there's the inner stiffening which could be heavy buckram or if sueded leather, not something you want to get wet at all. Outside of some very careful and limited hand sponging with a slightly moistened sponge or cloth done a little bit at a time, home methods are going to mess the belts up. Having them cleaned professionally (not commerical dry-cleaning, but museum type restoration and cleaning methods) would cost you more than the items are worth if you bought ones in almost pristine condition. Geroge is right on target, let it alone. Les

-und- and a big -und- it is.... There's -no- ink stamp of the issuing authority. A signature without a rubber ink stamp added in the Wehrmacht is....unusual and supicious. I'm not sure how legit that document is, but then that's my opinion. Les

There's currently a postwar (1920's-early 1930's) JGuS marked Godet with oakleaves on German ebay at this time. The item has some subtle differences from the standard wartime versions made initially out of gold, then later silver-gilt. If there's any interest in continuing this thread on post-1918 examples, I'll bootleg a couple of the photos so they can be compared to the wartime version. Otherwise.... Les

Rick, That example you posted? It looks like it was cast, possibly using a damaged Wagner/Fr piece to create the mold. Andreas last spring (2005) made the same observation on what looks like this same example on WAF. The eagle details are terrible, but many of the characteristics of the cross are consistent with a real piece can be seen in the crown style, lettering details/fonts/size/spacing. Les

Rick, Previtera's book shows numerous examples of Wagner/Friedlaender PlMs and one example awarded to Bohm in May 1918, shows something interesting that is see in the second two Tim posted: one of the eagles on the reverse of the Bohm PlM has -cross hatching- instead of clearly defined breast feathers. The cross hatching is not a result of the stike wearing down, but appear an attempt to "freshen" the die and sharpen the breast details on one of the eagles. This is one of several signs of die deterioration taking place during the war. The resort to "cross hatching" the eagle details during the spring/summer of 1918 on at least one example that can be shown here, raises the question why don't subsequent awards have the same feature? In otherwords, why doesn't the one awarded to Brian's grandfather? The answer is perhaps obvious if we take the time to look at other features on other PlMs. There are differences in the lettering details of other Wagner/Friedlander pieces indicating that there was more than one working or production die being used to make the solid silver gilt examples. For the record, Previtera discusses Wagner and Friedlander pieces, but does not come up with any clear differentiation between "Wagner" made PlMs and "Friedlaender" -marked- items. Some might feel they are two different "types" but my personal view is that there is no real difference between them. I'm starting to believe that Wagner sold "extras" or "factory seconds" that might not have met some specific factory quality control characteristics, to Friedlaender. There is also the matter that both Wagner and Friedlaender silver-gilt PlMs share at least one (possibly two) specific and very synchratic feature (a die flaw) not seen on the earlier Wagner made hollow gold PlMs. Previtera's book doesn't mention what the die flaw is, although whether he knows about it or not....I can't say. I do know that at least one other member of this forum is aware of the flaw. The first example posted by Tim has it, and so does the second two. I'm not going to take credit for an observation someone else told me about, however, I will suggest that folks look closely at the -REVERSE- of the first posted "Wagner/Fr" PlM, and then the second two that Tim posted. There is a flaw present on all three...and if anyone that owns or has access to a copy of "Prussian Blue" cares to make other comparisons, will see the same flaw on other silver-gilt Wagner/Fr's. Les

Brian, what makes you think the first one with the connected letters isn't real? It was sold by Detlev and has a COA he signed, and both medal and COA were listed on the emedals site a few months back. If the conected letters put you off your stride, there is a documented Wagner made PlM that was awarded to the flier Berthold that also had connected letters. Berthold is the unfortunate soul who is said to have been strangled with his own neck ribbon while wearing his award. The 1957 S&L copies have connected letters and the usual response among those who see connceted letters now, is not to look much further. Look past the connected letters and compare the rest of the details to yours or any other Wagner (-and- Friedlander) made PlM you're certain is real. For anyone who doesn't want to bother with checking forum archives, here's a comparison of a Wagner (on the left) and Friedlander (right). Compare these two to the three Tim posted, and feel free to point out what the differences are. Les

Tim posted the obverses of a wartime Wagner, and two postwar examples. Whoever wants to compare the images can make their own decisions. Comparing die struck pieces (flaws, etc) is an important consideration, however Wagner wasn't the only post war jeweler who made PlMs. We know from a 1940 catalogue Gordon Williamson found that Schickel marketed a PlM with Godet type eagles but with a different style cross, and the late Tony Colson had a "Schickel" in his collection. Meybauer made a single-sidedl PlM that also resembles a Godet badge. Sometimes provenance is the first step. For example, the PlM worn by the Austrian Emporer Franz Josef is neither a typical Godet or Wagner, and furthermore not known to have been made by Rothe either. Similarly, there is another Austrian recipient (Hotzendorf) with another unique badge, and so far, no known maker(s) for either of those two awards. Les

Tim, Any chance of including the reverse of the three, either seperately, or with the three images cut and pasted side by side? I know some folks like to see the front and back of medal bars, flight badges, etc., and with PlM's seeing the back side has certain advantages. There are post 1918 PlMs out there, however, verifying that they exist is sometimes tough to do. Previtera's "Prussian Blue" mentions them, but the coverage alloted for post-war examples is a bit thin. He includes a Godet example from a private collection that was worn by a recipient who made the political mistake of belonging to the S.A. at the wrong time, and wound up in front of a firing squad. There is no coverage of a post-war Wagner made items, but the examples you've posted are a step in the direction. Although the market or demand for the medals post-war might have been "small" (a term that gets tossed around quite a bit), there are examples of post-war made pieces. Les

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pour-Le-Merite-Blue-Ma...1QQcmdZViewItem ".... another one, just like the other one ...." (With apologies, partial lyrics excerted from Country Joe and the Fish's "Don't Bogart that Joint") In the words of Rick (Stogie) "when will they ever learn...?" Les

Gordon raises an important observation: there is a big difference between enamelling and painting. There are at several processes that are sometimes called "enamelling". True enamelling is the result of tiny glass beads (or powder) being melted onto a surface. Cloisonnee resembles enamelling, but is applied as a clay-like paste and then baked onto the applied surface. Enamel -paint- is a very different process, and the surface may be baked on, but it is -not- real enamelling despite the use of the term "enamel paint" by manufacturers, marketers, and people buying a paint they think is "enamel". A related method of painting is "japaning" or "japan black" which is usually the mixing of asphalt with thinners such as lacquer, oils, sometimes acetone, and similar compounds which are applied to a surface (usually iron or steel) and then baked to speed up the drying process and form a hardened surface. Some pre-1914 Iron Crosses are sometimes referred to as having a lacquered type finish. The surface is not painted, but appears to be "japaned". "Japaning" was a popular form of applying a hardened rust preventative surface on iron and steel up until shortly after WWI. With the mass production of automobiles, "japaning" was first used until production requirements lead to the development of newer faster drying paints and japaning was on it's way to becoming a thing of the past. Les

Here's what the inside looks like, which shows the seam/weld line and where rust has gotten to the steel. Also, notice the signs of metal working, and how the rim was formed and rolled inwards. Les

....Something to tide everyone over until the SOS crowd returns home in a couple of days to brag about what they've acquired. So, until then, here's a steel Ehrenbecher for those interested in flight related items. The years haven't been overly kind to this and it was badly stored before I got it, and a surface layer or rust had formed all over the entire goblet. There are no traces of this ever having been silvered. The surfce is lightly pitted so a photo with a higher resolution is going to begin looking very grainy even though the camera was sharply focused. I keep this inside a glass dome with moistture absorbant packs inside an open plastic bag, inside the goblet. For extra protection, this is one of the few items I've ever applied a thin layer of oil to as an additional moisture barrier. Yes, it's "identified" (attributed) but there's no inscribed or engraved name on it. I'm -not- advertising who the recipient was, or what else may (or may not) have come along with this item. Les

For a cheat sheet on ribbons: http://www.worldmedals.co.uk/Rib/germrib.htm I only wish I wasn't color-blind. Ribbon identification would be more than a little bit easier if I only knew what colors I was seeing at times!!!! Les

Side by side..... Comments? Les

I wasn't expecting to come up with an ID for my friend, but was wondering if the list of potential candidates was going to be a short one (less than five) or longer (ten or more). I don't know what the statistics are for the regular line units, but I have a hunch the garde units by the raw numbers got more of these. That's not saying the garde units were braver, but through the way awards were granted. Normally an enlisted man was decorated on the recommendation of his commanding officer who usually had to witness whatever it was and put a recommendation in. During the later part of the war, NCO's often led companies and junior officers were in short supply for regular units. The officer to enlisted ratio in garde units tended to be a bit higher, officer losses replaced sooner, and units brought up to full strength sooner than the regular units, which means that an enlisted type had a better chance of being seen "doing something" or being recommended. That doesn't nessarily mean Garde units were better (although these units did try to get the best men available) or braver mind you which the raw numbers might suggest at first glance. The Garde du Corps was Willy's favorite unit, and after the 1914 Ausmarch into Belgium and France were sent East to Russia. Late in war (espcially by 1918) cav units were being used as dismounted infantry and sent west to serve in the trenches. I suspect the "GdC" guys might have felt they had something to proove to the rest of the army and to justify being the proverbial apple of Willy's eye. Perhaps they felt they had to try harder (Wir geben uns mehr Muehe) given their preferential pre-war status, and so forth? Again, many thanks for the statistics even if it's narrowed down to less than a hundred men out of circa 1700 or so? ;-) Les

"SPM" Thanks! Even if it's not possible to identify the individual, knowing how many GMVKs were awarded to enlisted members of Garde units is interesting to me for reasons I won't elaborate on. When my friend has a chance to move and open the two cases, I'll see if I can get a photo of the reverse. I had the chance ot handle it a year or so ago, and recall it was well mounted with no label on the back to indicate (to the unitiated and don't have one of the "rings" Rick wears and weilds while summoning up the arcane) the firm that mounted the medals on the bar. Les

I've been watching this one also, and keep tabs on who bids on certain items, bid amounts, etc... The photo suggests wear or scrape marks around the 800 silver content numbers, and then around the Meybauer stamp there is also wear, but it doesn't appear to have taken place after the maker mark was stamped. I could be wrong, but from looking at the photo, it appears that there are no side to side scrapes or cut marks from the ends of the backing plate that cut into the edges of the maker mark. If there aren't any...I'd be suspicious of how real the Meybauer mark is on this piece. Look closely at the marks made by the ends of the plate in both photos, and there should be marks across the "neck" of the eagle in the second photo. The lack of wear/scrapes is a little suspicious to me.... Les