Les

Next, the covering letter (2 pages)

The second RK cassette and document photo.

George Petersen is a well known American militaria expert, dealer and former collector. George at one time, had a large personal collection of Fallschirmjaeger items, was intensely interested in all aspects of the Hermann Goering Panzer Division. A German dealer offered George Petersen a document grouping said to have been presented to the commander of the Hermann Goering P.D., and Petersen bought the items. Later, he found there was a big problem: the Ritterkreuz documents had been forged and placed inside genuine cases original documents would have been in. Petersen eventually recovered most of his money back, but was intensely hurt by the experience. He knew the dealer well, or so he thought, and trusted what he was told. When the matter ended, Petersen stopped collecting anything. He wanted others to know the details of what happened, and sent faxes with a covering letter to all interested parties. What follows is two published photos of the group before they were discovered to be forged; a covering letter by Petersen that accompanied the faxed material also sent by Petersen to several people. He did not want rumors circulating about what people thought happened. The faxes were typed and circulated by Petersen, and he expressly states in the covering letter he has no objection to the contents being disseminated to other people. The recipient of the covering letter and faxes was at the top of these documents, but have been removed by me with the knowledge of the person who received them directly from Petersen, and in turn made them available to me. Two photos follow, and then the rest, is entirely in George Petersen's words, with no slanting or altering of the details in any way.

Stephen (Previtera)...you have two accounts on this forum, but I still know it's you (under "STP" and "Imperial.") The Hitler Diaries was chosen as a quick example, not as a direct and exact comparison. Provenace is still a critical matter, and there has been none produced for the bar. Looks alone can be deceiving. Because it looks right, and matches expectations, does not mean it must be right. The courts have learned that looks alone, and eye-witness testimony is not absolutely conclusive evidence that some might be the father of an illegitimate child, or committed a crime. Despite "expert witnesses" and other evidence, DNA evidence has repeatedly shown that "evidence" can be misleading or wrong, despite the intentions of those providing it. Peterson (sorry for the typo) was sold a grouping "with provenance" by a well known dealer who represented it as coming from the family. The point is fakes, abound, and there are more than a few in books printed for/by a company in Virgina I could name that have some highly photogenic fakes in them, that should not be in there. Glass houses....?

Don, A tribute bar does not have to be the final or "penultimate" bar with everything on it. The person having it made could, for reasons of their own, want a bar representing a specific period of some one's life or career. One possible example might someone whose relative served with or under someone during a specific phase of that person's career. So, if the son of a staff officer who served with Model in 1940 wanted a bar that paid tribute to his father -and- Model a bar from a specific time period and with medals up to but not past that period, might be what the bar was about.

Prosper said early on, saying the bar is Model's make this a special case. If an item is said to belong to someone who is a well-known or high ranking individual, provenance can be a make or break issue. Look at what happened when the so-called Hitler diaries were announced, and the resultant outcome. Because something looks right, that does not automatically mean it must be right. Looks and appearances can be deceiving. Propser also mentioned even very knowledgeable collectors/dealers can get taken in. Several years ago, on another forum, a very interesting situation was reported in detail with the entire story of how George Peterson was sold an RK document grouping, that later turned out to have been fabricated. It took George ten years to discover the deception, when the family that supposedly had and sold the documents years before, and as events turned out, still had the original documents. Instead of derailing this thread, I'm thinking of starting a separate thread on it.

In post 60 I said: Someone wanting a "tribute bar" may not intend fraud or deception at all. They might have a display piece for their collection, but if it ever changed hands or was sold by the collector's estate, a "tribute" piece could subsequently take on a life of it's own. No fraud or deception might have been intended by anyone. If the bar was sold by an estate who didn't know what it was, and there were no attached documents, a dealer or person selling the item, would not offer an attribution or provenance if the previous owner had died, or it had changed hands, and it's origins as a copy lost or forgotten. There are also cases when an seller can't get anyone to buy the story, and offers it as is to move it with a price reduction and no story.

This photo from the Bundesrachiv has a date of Nov 1944, shortly after Arnhem, where my father's first cousin was one of the Fj's under Model's command during the battle there the month before. Note in the photo, Model is still wearing his "Frozen Meat" medal, no EKII ribbon in the buttonhole, -AND- very clearly seen in the photo are loops for wearing a medal and/or ribbon bar. Any bar worn in those loops would have meant regulations required the 1914 ribbon have the 1939 bar attached there...since he wasn't wearing it in the buttonhole. Model was a busy man during the war, and high enough in rank that he would have had enough staff lackies to launder his clothing, add or put his ribbons and medals on his uniform, instead of doing it himself. As a GFM, the number of lackies would have been higher than a divisional commander. The claim he didn't bother to upgrade his medal bar after 1939, while it is clear he would have had to update his ribbon bar. Having both bars done at the same time is not that much extra work if he wanted both done. Photos show he did change the way he wore his medals, and uniforms over the course of the war. Why have ribbon or medal bar loops placed on a uniform in 1944/1945, not wear the 1914 EKII ribbon/39 bar in the buttonhole, if he wasn't wearing an updated ribbon bar and possibly even an updated medal bar?

Another in color...

A few mid-war photos in color, to show the color of the ribbon in the buttonhole. It was not a 1914 ribbon at all.

Amen to that. In this thread, I was accused of not being an "Imperial collector" because some people have selective memories. If they would care to take the time to look in the archives, I have posted documented groupings of items, uniforms, and other items from my personal collection. Recently, I've become reluctant to advertise what I have. After being on the receiving end of an armed house invasion with the perpetrators looking and asking for some very specific items, and three burglaries of my house in the last decade, I've reconsidered who I tell what I have, etc. I've never kept things at home, and didn't loose anything when those events took place. A collector friend of mine lost a two million dollar plus collection stored in a bank vault, when the thieves were able to by-pass -all- of the security systems who knew what they were looking for, and how to get it. When you find yourself on the wrong end of a gun pointed directly at your head, you learn to re-consider your life and behavior. Enough of me, and I won't respond in kind to negative remarks aimed at me. The "Model bar" as Paul has insisted has to be Model's, and it has been claimed the bar was not updated to include the 1939 bar to the 1914 EKII, and other WWII era decorations he would have been entitled to wear. Period photos, show Model wearing several uniforms and the details are interesting, because they show changes over time. I'll post some of these taken from various on-line sources, many of them with Bundesarchiv markings. They are shown not for self use, but in line with fair use copyright practices, to help others on this forum make their own independent decisions based on facts. Photo #1 shows Model and Bush sometime after Model received his 1939 EKI Spange, and wearing a long ribbon bar. Noticeably absent in the photo is any buttonhole ribbon. Also see the second photo which clearly shows -no- buttonhole ribbon, and the presence of medal bar loops on his chest. If he wore a ribbon or medal bar in those loops, regulations would have required the 1914 EKII ribbon to have the 1939 bar if he did not wear the ribbon in his buttonhole. There are other photos showing him wearing a buttonhole ribbon and bar to the 1914 EKII, but after the winter of 1941, he seems to have stopped wearing that ribbon, in favor of wearing the Ostfront medal ribbon bar in the buttonhole instead. There are several photos showing him wearing this ribbon, without an EKII ribbon in the same buttonhole, even as late as Feb 1945. By 1944, he was entitled to wear the Honor Clasp of the Wehrmacht ribbon/clasp attachment but appears to have preferred the "Frozen Meat" medal after the first winter in Russia, and through the rest of the war.

A now-dead forger of fine art, once said, if it was made once, it can be made again. In the high stakes world of art forgery, making something look right relies on getting all the details right, which means using the style of brush a painter used that go past the details of whether he or his apprentices were left or right handed, and every other complex detail of painting such as the proportion of pigments, and so on. In the museum world, art and antiquities that look and feel right, are sometimes betrayed by methods that are true forensics, for example, the deterioration rates of materials that can be tested in labs against known standards. A 500 year old painting can be tested to determine if it was made hundreds of years ago, or recently. A medal bar can be constructed using period materials, put together in the correct order, and made as a 'tribute bar' such as a copy of Richtofen's full bar, Rommel's medal bar, etc, by someone who wants a display piece (for whatever purpose) because the original is not available, not for sale, etc, and they want it as a copy piece for their collection. There are/were OMSA members who made and sold ribbon and medal bars to order. If you told them you wanted a particular medal bar made up, they would do it for you based on the medals and details you supplied or if they had to do it on their own. Some of their "work" is still around, not to mention the efforts of others. Someone wanting a "tribute bar" may not intend fraud or deception at all. They might have a display piece for their collection, but if it ever changed hands or was sold by the collector's estate, a "tribute" piece could subsequently take on a life of it's own. A piece might look exactly like an original period made piece is every detail, however, being certain of when it was made may not be so absolutely certain. I'm not saying the "GFM Model bar" is something or not. Although the details of construction, and arrangement might look right, that alone is not always enough. If someone offered you a medal bar purported to have belonged to Erwin Rommel, and it looked right, wouldn't you want to establish background details regarding where it came from, how they came to own it, previous owners, etc, not a collector's "tribute bar" etc?

"He had a vehicle and a crew that worked together like a well oiled machine. He and his crew knew their tank and what they could do with it. Moving to a new tank, one that would have teething problems, was probably not a good idea for them. To me it seems better to stick to something you know well and have had great success with rather than to move to some other tank just because it was a newer model." This really does make a great deal of sense and Gordon nails it right on the head. Combat reactions often rely heavily on training and reflexes or instincts that come without having to think. When your life depends on what you do, having reliable equipment is very important even if it might be slower or seemingly less efficient than other systems...in theory, or on paper. In the middle of the night when you're not fully awake, surprised in an ambush, or and have to react instantaneously or without thinking, letting the hands take over and let the brain catch up when it can is what can be the difference between life or death. I've spoken to many German WWII vets that felt a reliable bolt action rifle that seldom jammed and two full Patronentaschen on the belt, was far better in combat than a new G43 semi-auto and a ammo box full of late war ammunition.

Chris, EM straps were sewn on to the Bluse, not into the seam. One possible explanation why some (but not all) troops might not have straps on could be due to depot replacements on their way to their assigned units, or men re-assigned to other units and haven't been completely assimilated into their new unit. For example, during the winter of 1917 and first few months of 1918, younger men from eastern front units were frequently re-assigned to western front units in need of replacements prior to the "Friedensturm." Although Allied reports of captured Germans during 1918 report some German units had men with shoulder straps from several units, some unit commanders might have preferred men under their command to remove past unit identification marks in the interests of "uniformity" rather than having three, four or more unit numbers being worn by men under him.

and then you might be giving him something for a wrong answer. Why? On the m10 style ENLISTED tunics, the straps are removable; on the ENLISTED "Bluse" introduced in the middle of the war, the straps are sewn by regulations supposed to be sewn to the tunic. Units from the size of companies on up, have at least one officer. OFFICER field tunics have shoulder straps that are sewn into the upper seam of the top sleeve, and those straps have metal unit numbers or cyphers fixed on top, in plain sight. If the intention of removing shoulder straps is to hide the unit's identity for whatever reason, what about the officers who can't remove theirs? The enlisted men being told to take the straps off, while the officers have theirs permanently attached and that can be used to identify the unit, are at odds with each other. Also, spiked helmets were usually worn in the field with helmet covers that also had unit numbers, etc, on the outside. Why have enlisted men remove shoulder straps if the officers in a unit cannot remove theirs?

I find it odd that you're still beating that drum. What I was doing is pointing out what the law is, nothing more. I said in that deleted thread you're referring to Paul, I was offered a copy by someone who said he could get a copy if I wanted it. I didn't. The person who offered to get a copy for me wasn't the one making them, and by relying on "he said he could get it from someone who knew someone" that's the definition of hearsay and not admissible in court. Why pass on information that is nothing more than hearsay, and get myself bound up in a lawsuit relying on a chain of "he saids" that wouldn't go anywhere.

The idea of confiscation is aimed primarily at government or public entities, civic organizations, etc, not items belonging to individuals. If applied broadly to properties owned by -everyone-, then veterans could have their medals and all relevant documents seized, etc. Translations fall under the definition of being a derivative of the original work, and are also the intellectual property of the copyright holder unless permission is granted to the translator. Translating and (re)publishing a derivative work does run the risk of being a copyright infringement.

There is that little old matter of copyright laws. If I recall correctly, it was published in 1940. Love it or hate it, the German (and European) laws state copyright expires seventy years after the death of the authour(s).

The dude with the standard is one of the few, the proud, the Leib Gendarmerie. They aren't actually cavalry and were never meant to be field units.

Barry WC is correct on Hammelman listing recipients. There were over 5000 medals awarded prior to 1918, and almost one-fourth of them were Russians during the Napoleonic era. I read the link to today's post, and the list of recipients is potentially a large one. Do you think there's any chance of narrowing the time frame down a little either by focusing on Leipzig only, and/or officers of a certain rank, branch of service, etc?

Vince, Are you thinking of using a Goede as a source for the part? The repair might be hard to hide because the hilts are probably not going to look the same. If one of the hilts is still there, a casting can be made from it, and used as a model to make a replacement. Making a simple two piece mold of a more or less flat object is a simple matter an art student or jewelry-crafts person can do for you. A professional repair could cost you more than you paid for it. Do a google search on molding and casting and the results should give you a decent idea of how the process is done, and if you can make the mold yourself, and perhaps find someone to do the actual casting. Once that's done, cutting and soldering the piece in place is quite easily done. Les

Chris, neat documentation that ties into the matter of WWI era military executions. Figures of reported executions are available, and they are interesting, and not what more than a few might think. There were internal political reasons based on the "multi-national" and confederated nature of the Imperial Germman state and army that resulted in a hesitancy on the part of the Prussians, to resort to executing men from other "national units" within the army at large, but also members of the Prussian branch of the army. The highest number of executions for all reasons by any of the combatants during the war, was Britain and the Dominions/colonies/etc, with a total of over 700 men shot. The next highest is the French, with a bit more than 500 executions, but official figures are absent (and are both lacking and highly conjectural) for a very specific part of 1917. The numbers for Russia are entirely conjectural, and there are no reliable statistics available. The official German tally of military executions for all reasons, was roughly 110. During the next late great international debate, the reported and estimated figures are -entirely- different, but that's not the subject of this thread.

Weimar era, and missing the Reichsadler and wreath.

Barry, He's wearing the Maria Theresa Order and other Austrian awards. The MTO and PlM are high profile enough that identifying him should be quick and easy. However, the Pour le Merite was probably awarded during the Second Schleswig-Holstein War (circa 1848) when Austria and Prussia were on the same side. During the Seven Weeks War (1866) between Austria and Prussia (with allies) the Pour le Merite wouldn't have been something worn by an Austrian at that particular time. The majority of my reference books are in boxes at the moment. Someone with the second Hammelman PlM books should be able to come up with a very short list of Austrians who received a PlM during the 1840-1860 era. He's far too young looking to have received it during the Wars of Liberation (1813-1815). Les