Les

Brian, The bar you posted is a good case in point, about age/aging. Silk ages and deteriorates, and there is nothing that can be done to stop or prevent that from happening. The molecules that form the silk break down (albeit slowly) over time even if the item is left alone, not handled, kept in a dark room at a standard temperature and humidty. Like people and out skin, silk ages. The newness and stiffness of silk (like our own skin) starts to sag and show signs of "age." In the sample you posted, the silk shows wear and fraying, but also....how the silk has started to collapse and shape itself around the suspension rings. That is part of the aging process. I agree with you that not all bars age the same, but when there are no signs of age, that raises questions and doubts. Les

The seller pulled this item, and the other one, before the auction was due to close with no explanation other then the item(s) was no longer for sale. The "iffiness" of the other item, combined with some of the suspicions raised in this thread about the authenticity of the medal bar (or specifically when it was assembled?), and the fact the seller cancelled the auction strongly hints at both of the items being in the same category. The fact the items were pulled doesn't mean Stogie's query has been answered or that anyone has convinced him that it was real/fake. Les

Brian, The aftermath of both wars resulted in hardships depending on not only what region of Germany people lived in, but whether they happened to live in large cities, smaller towns, or the country-side, and also how many family members were missing/dead, or being held in post war Allied military compounds. My father came from the Saar (Sankt Ingbert, now about 20 kms from Saarbruecken and the current French border). After WWI, the Saar was turned over to the French for a 15 year period as part of post war reparations (coal mines were an important resource and ruthlessly exploited, and the coal shipped to France with little being allocated for local use), and occupied by French troops and ruled by them through martial law. Farmers and small town residents had easier access to food and small markets than people living in larger towns. This situation was true of the 1914-18 war time era, and also during. and in the immediate aftermath of WWII. The post WWI French occupation at times tended towards heavy-handedness. For example, labor strikes at times were met with direct reprisal by the French military and strikers or dissidents shot down in the streets, newspapers closed, etc.. The aftermath of WWI wasn't all that bad, but not particularly a cake walk. There are letters from some of the family to other kin, describing post war conditions, but nothing particularly bad. Economic conditions throughout Europe in late 1918-1920 weren't all that great, and the subsequent bank collapses, inflationary period (1921-22) that ruined the economy, and a series of national and then a later international depression were problems that the more than the Germans experienced. The aftermath of WWII however, was/is different. My family, living in the west near the French border, were occupied by the French -again-. The French rounded up German POWs, used them for working on French roads, repairing or clearing war damage, etc. Some of the male work force (in all parts of Germany) were years getting home.. The British tried to demobilize Germans within weeks or a few months of the wars end, the Americans took a bit longer, the French a couple of years in some cases, and the Russians...well, many never came home, and some were still in Russian captivity for ten years. Economic conditions in Germany varied, depending on whether people lived in large cities (everything was scarce, most public utilities were often non-existent or bombed out), small towns (some war damage but ofset by the nearness of small markets, etc), or country-side/farmers were produce was grown locally, and farmers had usually had enough to eat because they produced their own crops, herds, etc. In the winter of 1945/46, labor was scarce, and fuel for the winter was in short supply. In the Saar, locals could get small amounts of fuel from the local mines, but had to haul it by hand since transportation was in short supply. Food was also, since wartime rationing practices were continued during the Allied (French) occupation, and food shipped to Europe by the western Allies went to help the "Allied" civilian populations before the Germans got anything. Post war shipping priorities usually meant the Germans got little or nothing from the Allied occupation forces. My father came to the US before WWII, as the result of a family dispute over some property, and he left "home" for a variety of reasons. He was born in 1915, and he was old enough to have been conscripted for WWII service, and considering German losses during the war, he probably wouldn't have survived the entire war. Two of his cousins (about the same age as he was) were mobilized in 1938. One served as a Pioneer e.m, rising to a commissioned rank, and survived the war and spent two years in a French POW cage after 1945. The other cousin served in the infantry from 1939, and was killed three weeks before the end of the war in the Colmar pocket, not far from home. My great granfather owned Germany's third largest bottle making plant and when he died in 1929, employed 250 people. The plant survived until 1942, when badly placed Allied bombs completely destroyed the plant. The plant meant my family had a certain economic status (and also with and in the "party"), that came to an end with the war. My father and mother were in the US during the war, and through an exchange of letters, realized that there was a considerable need for clothing, food, and many other things. What my parents could do, was send clothing, non-perishable food supplies, and other items in family "care packages." At the time, they didn't know how important those parcels from family were. My mother told me about sending a tan colored coat she bought for my father, that he hated and woulnd't wear. She also sent a canned ham, and some other items in the same parcel. Years later, when I was visiting with my father's cousin Gisella, she mentioned that shortly after the war, she received a coat from her mother (my father's aunt) that she died dark blue, altered to fit, and wore during the next several winters. The coat was the only warm thing she had. I realized where the coat came from, and that it was my fathers...somethign he cast off, but meant a great deal to her. The ham in the same package....she recalled her mother making a meal of ham and (rationed) potatoes for Christmas 1945, and years later could recall how it filled the house with the smell of a good meal in grim times, with no fuel, most of the men who went to war either dead or still in POW camps. She said that even to this day, the smell of cooked ham and potatoes brings back a special memory in her mind, and the thought of a familie's love. My family lived/lives in a small town on the outskirts of a large city, and while things were rough, they got by with the help of care packages, and the good fortune of my father having left the "Heimat" before getting caught up in WWII, and consequently, was able to help the rest of the family out when the war ended. Many Germans were not so foturnate. Many former east Germans were re-settled in the Saar after WWII, and I know of many small villages that prior to 1945, had less than a couple of hundred people living in them. Today, those same villages are surrounded by modern housing tracts and the population in some of these towns in upwards of a thousand or more. If you visit the old cemetaries and look at the names (which are good indicators of regionalism by the way, since names in the past were good indicators of what part of Germany people came from) of those buried there since WWII, there are plenty of "Ossis" and other folk who have "settled" in the West for ever. There's more stories, and I'm certain the German nationals on this list have their share of stories they could tell about their own families. Les

Dan, The Treaty of Brest-Kitovsk signed on 3 March 1918, between the Germans and the new Soviet Russian government stipulated terms that the Russians were forced to accept. You can read the terms (in English) at this link: http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918/brestlitovsk.html The signing of the Treaty didn't mean that the Germans withdrew to the borders, but in actuality far from it. German troops were still in Russia on occupation duty, and as a means of making certain the Russians complied with the terms of the Treaty. If the Russians, didn't the Germans resorted to resuming local operations and advancing further into Russian territory...something the Russians did not want. The Germans used this implied threat as a way of getting compliance, and at times, actually did resort to resuming small scale operations. The naval blockade against Germany was in full force after the November 11 armistice as a means of pressure against the new German government to accept and sign the Treaty terms, and remained in effect until the signing of the Treaty of Versailles in June 1919. It did not continue against the Germans...or the Russians until 1924. During the three years of the Russian civil war (1918-1920) there was considerable unrest, and neither the Whites or Reds could guarrentee much of anything. Groups of armed soliders could (and did) make their way home....the best known example being the Czech Legion that revolted against the Russians in May 1918, and then began a two year return journey home by fighting their way -EAST- to Vladivostock. Allied (British, American and Japanese) troops intervened against the Soviets in 1918/1919 primarily at Vladivostock, and the Murmansk area in an effort to guard supply depots/arms caches against Red forces. There was no real blockade against the Russians, outside of an arms embargo against the Reds, but not the insurgent Whites. A very small number of former German POWs were still inside Russia, but not as prisoners, after the 1919 Treaty of Versailles. Some of them were slow getting home, but it was not because the Russians were unable to guarrentee their safety, as it was the inability during the Civil War, to provide reliable transportation for repatriating former POWs. Some decided to wait for a ride home while others opted for forming small bands and walking homewards. German POWs held in France after the war are another story, and yes, the French used and worked them for some time after the official end of the war. (They did the same thing in 1945...one of my relatives was a Fallschirmjaeger that was in a hospital inside Germany that was over run by French troops shortly before the war ended, and found himself being beld for several months after the war was over. He was only released by the French after six months when they were unable to use him because of his wounds. His brother on the other hand was a Heer pioneer officer and held for two years by the French...). Les

"Vince" You're correct that regionalism still isn't dead in Germany, and modern (western) Germans look down their noses at the "Ossis." A great many "Berliners" have ancestors, or even many current one, who left Silesia for "greener pastures". Also, let's not forget that -many- Germans from the eastern part of the "Reich" left their homes a step or two ahead of the Russian army in 1944/45, and subsequently settled in the west. It's interesting how names that used to be indicators of the geographic origins of where Germans were from, has been blurred by refugess or immigration. In the context of Germany before 1945, the term "Saupreuss" comes to mind... It's fallen out of use these days, but that doesn't mean a German wouldn't know what it meant if someone called them one. Regional atagonism towards Prussia is probably a bit earlier than the Bismarck era. During the troubles of 1848, with the rebellions/uprisings in various states, there was some interest in unification of -all- German speakers, meaning that even Austria should be part of a "Greater Germany." The debate over whether there should be a "greater Germany" (all German states and including Austria) or a "lesser Germany" (all German states but without Austria) was a decision made by Bismarck, and implemented by Prussia, rather than any consideration of the rest of the German states thought about unification and the form of government that a unified state would take. Prussia and it's monarchy was interested in maintaing it's own national interests above all other states, and the King refused to consider any offer from the Frankfurt assembly of an Imperial crown, preferring to "take" power rather than being "granted" power from the masses. Inclusion of Austria was a considerable problem for the Prussians, who realized that allowing "Austria" (pre "KuK" days) and "equal" representation would have resulted in Prussia being stuck in a passenger seat rather than driver's role in the development of any future unificed "Germany." The Prussian attitude of "our way or the highway" caused a considerable amount of resentment, particularly when hardball politics of ramming Prussian interests down the throats of other states who collectively outnumbered "Prussia". The matter of cultural and regional differences in the German past and present isn't particularly related to the topic matter of this forum, but is a definite part of how Germans see not only the world, their neighbors, but themselves and even how they define what they were and are, as a nation. Les

I'm not Brian...although my father's family had several family members who served as rankers during the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars (for Hannover and the British), a few who were drafted into French regiments (the west bank of the Rhine was annexed by Napoleon and part of "Metropolitan France"), and one direct ancestor that served during the 1815 campaign as a member of the 4th Westphalian Landwehr (Ziethen's I Corp) at the battle of Ligny the day before Waterloo, and arrived at Waterloo at the end of the day taking part in the pursuit of the defeated French forces falling back towards France and Paris. Les

Marc, Thanks for the link. I've been checking out the archives on the "other" Forum, and found Marshall's photos and commentaries. (Good work there Marshall !) I'd like to suggest that Marshall re-post his comments on -this- Forum so they become part of the archives -here-, in the event that the other site ever goes under, loss of backup information through server and related crashes, etc. I mean no disrepect towards Detlev, but often he renders an opinion without much in the way of explanation. Yes, he has built his business and reputation on "knowing things" and getting him to share why he says something is akin to asking him for free money (perhaps?). Posting images and running commentaries on sites such as this invite and allow feedback, as well as a source for people to read and learn on their own without a take it or leave it mind set. On a Forum like this, we try to convince people (if that's possible) and Marshall is -very- (and that's an understatement) good a using comparative photos relying on solid examples. Les

Marshall, fire away on the "stepped cores" and other suspect types, either in this thread or a parallel one. I acquired mine quite some time ago that came as part of a larger deal, and didn't pay all that much for it. (Less than a standard 1914 EKI fetches these days.) Also, I consider myself a novice at Prinzen collecting, and am all ears when those with information want to comment. Les

..and an unmarked EKII Prinzen. Despite the fuzzy photo, the details on obverse and reverse are very sharp. Note the core on the front doesn't -quite- fill the entire frame. Les Let's try using -this- photo.... Les

Here's the obverse of my Meyhbauer EKI.... Les

Oooops.....the names are different.! My mistake. I should have had my reading glasses on when I read that. I'd have edited or deleted the previous post if possible. Les

Anyone notice that the name of the recipient and the officer signing the award document are the same? The singature at the bottom is in a different hand than the rest of the document, but it certainly appears Brinahus awarded the EKII to himself. (-Bad- form chappie and not something a true gentleman would have done.... ) Les

Rick (aka Stogie) An NCO medical type -might- have received an EK, although, I wouldn't discount the possibility of one of the almost invisible logisitical types that worked on the railways. Getting troops mobilized, and to the border in the short space of weeks on an improvised plan resulted in a major upset of transportation systems. German farmers thinking the French were going to invade harvested crops early, and started sending produce to the markets, while the various German states were in the prcoess of pre-empting all transport headed west. Bear in mind, in 1870, there was no "Schlieffen Plan" and the invasion of France was very much an off the cuff thing. It wouldn't be hard to visualize a major rail tie up around Saarbruecken and some old reservist familiar with routing trains around wrecks, crowded rail centers, etc., trying to establish some semblance of order and pulling it off. Les

The colour red in old paints or pigments almost always contains lead when it pre-dates the 1960's. Lead was used to stabilize the color, provide greater adhesion to the underlying surface, and a smoother surface texture. Environmental and health concerns in most "Western" countries resulted in lead based paints, pigments, gasoline, and so on, no longer being used after 1975/1980 or so. There are still some places in the world where lead is used however... It might be possible to test known original RAO's for lead content (or the percentage of lead content) in the red colour present on the eagle design, using non-destructive methods (there are several ways to do this) to determine if original period examples contain lead in small or even trace amounts. Companies dealing with environmental matters (for example removing lead based paints from old homes), small laboratories with defraction equipment can all conduct quick easy tests for the presence of lead (usually under $10 per sample). If original pieces contain lead, then this might be a possible way to sort out the "sheep from the goats." Suspected modern copies could be tested, and if there is no lead present, the absence is a good indicator that the piece might not be all that's it's cracked up to be. Les

Marshall wrote: "I couldn't find a good picture of the bottom of a WW1 Ehrenbecher anywhere, but as Stogieman pointed out, the WW2 Ehrenpokal also by Wagner features the same 'marking protocol' as the 1914 Weiderholungsspange. " I have a steel one (with nary a trace of -ever- having been plated at all) that has a stamp/Stempel makers marks that has a diameter of about 13mms. In the center is an perched eagle with spread wings, and around the edge or rim of the stamp is very small lettering. The steel surface shows considerable oxidization, and consequently I'll have to work on the lighting techniques to get the best possible shot of the stamp. I'll need a day or so to get the photo(s) and post them. It's setting in a glass dome with some moisture absorbant packetts, and getting it out and taking photos should be much easier for me to do, than Brian going through all the trouble of unbolting his from the hood of his Dodge Ram. Les Addendum: The eagle is the type found on the later style award document(s) for the RAO, HOH, PlM, and so on. Starting at about the 7 o'clock position and running around the edge is what appears to be "Chef des Flugwesens". No other script or makers marks present.

Chip, The helmet is a "W.66" (Weissenberger). The inside crown has a light layer of rust covering the batch number (if it's there...). The American (Pfc. Robert Hanna) that brought it home was in the III Btl, 112th Infantry, 28th Division. Later in life he became a Captain (barracks/troop commander in the Pennsylvania State Police). His unit was all the way on the right hand side of the 28th's sector, very close to Varrenes and Chappy. You're quite right that there appears to be another number under the 7 on the back side of the helmet. A considerable amount of paint is missing around the rivet hole, however best guess was the previous number was also a 7 (although much larger than the one currently "on top"). There are -no- signs of red paint or pigment around the worn/damaged areas near the shield(s) or number(s). RicK, I'm amazed how you seem to pull proverbial bunnies out of the hat on some of these guys! Von der Goltz in some ways is typical of many of his generation. Dead at a young age, and almost entirely forgotten...even by geneological sources. Thanks for the information on someone who seems to have been written off as "one more dead bachelor." On 11.11 this year, I'll add his name to the list of the fallen (and all of the others who have since gone "West") I'll "remember" privately. Thanks guys, for the additional information, comments, and those who complimented the items. I didn't do much except be at the right place and at the right time when the veterans newphew brought them to a gun show to sell after his bachelor uncle died and left the items to him. Les Les

The canteen is painted/covered with a brown lacquer, and a brown corderoy cloth covering. The holster is missing the securing strap and is very worn. All of these items have paper tag/labels that were tied to them and in the handwriting of the American soldier that took them from von der Goltz's body after killing him. Not included in the photos is a history of the American's unit during WWI, and a copy of a map showing where he (and his unit) encountered von der Golz and his men. The American after the war became a commanding officer of a Pennsylvania State Police barracks/unit. Intersestingly, it seems he couldn't read a map because his notations of where he thought his unit was on the first day of the Meuse-Argonne offensive, was not were he and his unit actually were, and he had north and south reveresed! Les

The steel hemet really isn't part of this thread, but is part of the von der Golz group. The lining is missing. If you look at the Hohenzollern crest you'll see there was an earlier crest that's been painted over. If you refer to Ludqig Baer's book on the German steel helmet, you'll see this crest type does not have a line running around the outside edge of the crest. It's my opinion, but I think the type of crest with the outside edge/line is not original to the period, and were added by collectors or dealers long after WWI. The company number on the back of the helmet, and crest are both the same aged color (a cream color). Les

Otto, Here's the grouping that belonged to Leutnant Freiherr Eberhard von der Goltz of the 1te Garde zu Fuss. The Felsbinde you've already seen. I'll post two details of the helmet showing the Hohenzollern crest on the side, and a company number on the back of the helmet. Les

Otto, Yes, I'll post the rest of the items as a group within the next 24 hours. Les

Christophe, This is one of mine. It was taken from the body of a German officer killed on 26 September 1918, during the first day of the Meuse-Argonne offensive and brought home by the American soldier who killed him. Also taken from the same officer (and now part of my collection) was his pistol (m1910 Browning semi-auto), holster, canteen, and steel helmet (marked with the Hohenzollern crest seen on some Garde helmets). Based on the location of the American unit, the German unit(s) opposite them, and a description of where the officer was killed, the man was Leutnant Freiherr von der Goltz of the 1te. Garde zu. Fuss. He was the only officer from the 1te Garde zu Fuss killed that day. Freiherr v.d.Golz and his men were spotted by American troops outside of a bunker. When his men ran inside, he tried to rally them and was shot and killed outside the doorway. When the Americans surrounded the bunker, his men surrendered and when leaving the bunker had to step over (not on) his dead body. I try collecting items that can be identified to individuals, but in this case didn't realize how grim the details of who it was worn by, and it's history would be. Les

Brian, I've heard of winding long ribbons and similar items around a relatively large diameter cylinder with an acid free backing between the layers. Depending on how it's done, it can support the layers of fabric, while providing cushoning, and prevent the material from moving around. Thing is, get the wrapping right...not too tight, or too loose. Chemical reactions are linked to heat, and some museums have experimented with freezing some items (if they are worth the trouble) or storage in reduced temperature environments (the way fur coats are stored for example) to slow down degeneration. Sealed containers with inert gases inside are another method. The large medal bar is going to be a problem with all of the medals on it. The combination of weight, lack of support for the medal itself and overlying the cloth in places are factors to ask an expert about. The fabric will eventually start breaking up, but the idea is to make sure that it's later rather than sooner. If anyone has seen Jurassic Park, and recalls the mosquitoes trapped in amber surviving millenia, .....that concept could be applied to medals. (Tongue in cheek here.) Imagine everything embedded in a large lucite block, and setting on the mantel, with an inscribed brass plate also inside indicating who it all belonged to once upon a time.... <ack> <cough> <gasp> Les

Brian, Differing metals (metals, not medals) can create specific problems when stored next to each other. Some materials are relatively inert, others can create an ion exchange that causes one or both to degrade or oxidize. Perhpas the easiest way to understand this is what happens to household plumbing when a bronze fitting that has water passing through it, undergoes a slow ion excahnge that impacts the bronze fitting and results in leaks. Ribbons, and cloth require specific storage situations. Folded cloth can begin to harden along crease lines that results in breakage lines/zones or tears when pieces are handled. The best way to store cloth is to stretch it out flat, with no creases, and no weight on top. Do not subject the cloth to any pressure. An additional problem with cloth is...-silk-. Silk is not easy to stabilize or stop deterioration from taking place. Silk fibers are not spun the way normal cloth is, and is chemically and structurally different. In some ways, it's similar to hair. When silk (and hair) begin to age, it breaks or shears when stress or pressure is applied, or even during very light handling. Sunlight, darkness, makes no differences. Silk degrades as part of it's own aging process, and it will fall apart in time, and if handled, the process only speeds up. If any of the ribbons are silk, stretch them out flat like any of the others, and keep them fixed to a spot where they won't move, and there is no uneven pressure. This will help some of those very special ones to last through many more generations. You mentioned the word sword? If the scabbard or any fittings (the ferrule or bushing next to the hilt and blade backing) are leather, there is a potential problem with acidity left over from the tanning process. Acid in leather can affect steel or iron, as we all know. If you can detect any signs of chemical reactions going on, and the blade can be disassembled, giving any leather components their own special 'space" is something to consider. That pickelhaube of your's with the Garde star, leather body, silk lining, and mixture of metal parts? That thing has all sorts of chemical considerations that will eventually interact with each other. Talk to your friend at the Smithsonian (if he has a curatorial background, and has had some chemistry courses along with the standard museology training) and get some professional advice on the specific requirements for that specific piece of headgear. Les

One more thought on the location of HQ's... Regimental commanders relied on the reports of their three battalion commanders, and divisional generals in turn received reports from their three regimental commanders, and channeled information onwards to their own superiors. WWI marked a change in the way commanders "saw" the front. WWI technology had advanced in some areas (killing technology) while communications were not far advanced from the age of officers handing notes to runners, and telling the guy to report on the situation to another officer. In WWI, radios were new, bulky, not very transportable, prone to breakdowns, and problematical in the extreme. The telephone was a recent enough invention, that phone wires could easily be laid between HQ's of different units, and reports made quickly. However, artillery fire could cut phone lines, even those that were buried several feet underground. "Leadership" require an ability to make decisions, but it also required information. A general who didn't have information, or couldn't be found (because he wasn't at his HQ...) was not doing his job. If he couldn't receive information, and translate that into orders for all units under his command, and to pass situational reports to his superiors, and brother officers on his flanks, he wasn't doing everything his job required. During previous wars, an officer could often see the entire battlefield from one spot. In WWI, mass modern armies resulted in battlefields which could be miles across, and created situations in which no single commander could see the entire battle at once. The importance of modern communications can't be stressed enough, and that lack led to an inability of commanders to stop out of control situations, re-evaluate old out of date information because situations changed since the report was made, etc. Quite simply, leadership required "leaders" to be in a position to communicate with men under them, and up the food chain to more senior commanders. This meant being in a HQ location were he could be found, and was in a position to "lead". This translated into the simple equation, the larger the unit and greater the number of men under an officers command, the more likely he was forced to command from a fixed location, and the further away from the actual front line he was located. Les

Brain said: "This is a bit irritating to me. Perhaps if you check on the circumstances regarding the PlM award on an individual basis you might discover otherwise. My grandfather was a front line General exposed to constant fire as the front collapsed and he organized an orderly retreat to the German border and held the Americans and French. Generalizing like this just isn't fair to these guys as any one of these men, who weren't always old men in photos, could have been exposed to fire and bombardment on a constant basis." Brian, if you look at the defensive proceedures (aka "defense in depth") that the German army started using in the West as standard operating proceedures, you'd realize that divisional commanders or higher ranking officers were -seldom- in the first or second lines trenches. Here's part of the "why"..... A typical division in 1917 had three infantry regiments, and a defensive line usually held three, if not more, defensive lines. The first line was usually thinly held, and there might be a man to hold evey ten feet of front, and a similar amount towards the rear. The second line was usually held by a unit that was in a "ready" mode, but not required to post sentries, send out patrols, etc. These guys often got to handle a great deal of the logistical and support work (hauling supplies up to the front line). The third line was usually the reserve, or guys who had done their front line stint ( a week on average, or until battle casualities depleted the unit so badly it had to be rotated out and refit, rebuilt.) Further back was the gun lines, depots, and ...then...the divisional HQ. On average, a German defensive position could be 2-3 miles wide, and a similar depth to the rear. Now, each regiment has it's own HQ unit, and these are echeloned to the rear. A divisional general seldom had his own HQ closer to the front than the third line (about 2-3 miles to the rear), and usually further back than that. I've seen stats that suggest the average divisional general was far enough to the rear that he potentially could keep tabs on everything that was going on in FRONT of him, (the battle wasn't to his rear, and he needed to see or know everything that was going on in his sector of control).. Divisional (and higher) HQ's are chosen for their proximity to road grids, and related lines of communication towards the front, rear, and to maintain contact with units on all sides. If a divisional HQ is too far forwards, it becomes a target for heavy artillery (ranges of 10/12 miles) and well within an accurate shooting distance. One study comparing British and German general officers casualties rates, and the "chateau general" ideology, suggests that divisional HQ's tended to be located right outside the range of heavy artillery (12 miles or so to the rear). You suggest your grandfather was under "constant fire".....well, he may have been in range of artillery fire ("field artillery" such as a French 75 can range up to about 3-4 miles, and larger guns can easily double that). However, I seriously doubt your grandfather was exposed to "constant" small arms fire (rifles) or smaller support weapons (light and medium mortars) in 1918. If he was close enough that he was under "constant fire" from small arms, he would have been spending far too much time in a front line trench system, and far in advance of where a typical Divisional level HQ and it's staff would have been. He might have been able to see the front close up, but if he was too close, he may have been out of touch with what the rest of the units under his command were doing. German defensive thinking required knowing what all three defensive zones were doing, and co-ordinating the actions of all three zones simultaneously. That's best done, watching from the rear of the third line, not from the middle of the front lines itself. In the context of trench warfare, leading from the rear does make sense, although trying to do the same thing in mobile warfare doesn't. The higher up the army food chain you go, the futher to the rear Corps, and then Army Group HQ's tended to be located. Ludendorf toured front line sectors when he took over control of the western front, but after 1917, OHL was usually located in and around Spa, Belgium, which in 1917, was more than 75 miles from the actual front. Les